Pastel Pigments?

[redraider56]

My LHS carries about everything BUT pigment powders. Not wanting to order some stuff online when I may be able to make it myself, I ask this....is there any way I can make pigments with pastel powder? I have plenty of pastel chalk sticks in a wide array of colors and was thinking maybe mixing the powder with water or some mild detergent?

 

[the Baron]

Absolutely. I use chalk pastels for weathering; I have a set of earth tones, that I picked up at an art supply store for about $10. I just use an X-Acto knife blade to scrape the chalk onto my palette, and then apply it with a brush.

As to mixing with liquid soap, I've done that, too, to replicate mud built up on the wheels of a halftrack in 1/72. In that case, I scraped the chalk onto the palette, added a drop or two of soap, and stirred with a toothpick till it was constistent. I used the toothpick to apply it, as well as a paintbrush. Worked very well.

The only caution in using the chalks is that, if you apply them before applying a sealer, the sealer will change the look of the final coat, because it will moisten them ever so slightly. You can deal with this in a couple of ways. You can apply chalks over a matte sealer, which will leave the colors vibrant, but they will rub off with time. Or you can adjust by applying what appears to be too much of a color, knowing that the sealer will tone done the colors.

Hope that helps!

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

The biggest differences between pastel chalks and pigments.......

Pigments have a binder in them that helps them adhere to what you are putting them on. Putting them over a Satin or Matt coat helps stick them as well. They also don't loose their color as much if you overcoat them with a matt. Downside....they are more expensive, usually $5-$10 per pot, depending on size and manufacturer.

Chalks are just that...chalks, while they do stick, no where near as well as pigments do, and will rub off very easily, and they tend to disappear if overcoated with a matt. To compensate, you can "over weather" with the chalks, in the hopes that enough will be left after you overcoat with a matt. Upside....they are cheap....can get a whole pallet of colors for less than $20.

 

[redraider56]

I weather with the chalks extensively so I've got that process down and pat. The main thing I'm looking at here is to get "dried mud" inside the treads of the tires on my B-17.

Thanks Baron, sounds like I should be able to

 

[MrNatural]

i rolled the dice recently and bought a set of MIG pigments and I cant imagine using anything else. they look much more realistic and stick to your paint jobs really well especially if you use the fixer. yes they are a little pricey. but they last a long time. Better results and less frustration is always worth a couple extra dollars to me but if the chalks work for you than go with it! as long as your having fun!

 

[ScaleModelMadman]

If you use pastels and enjoy them that is great, I don't want to try and change anyone's mind but they are not the same as quality pigments. Yes they do their job well and can be effective but they don't have the same ability as quality pigments. You are not going to make pigments from pastel chalk, you are going to make ground up chalk dust. You can probably get the effect you want, but they are not the same at all.

As mentioned, there is a binder in MIG brand pigments that no other pigment has (nor pastels). Well except for the AK Interactive new pigments but that makes perfect sense considering it's Mig Jimenez's new company, he knows the secret ingredient.

As far as getting it into the tread of a tire simply slosh it on thickly, let it dry and wipe it off the surface leaving it in the tread pattern. To be perfectly honest though, you could probably get this effect much better with a 'buff' colored oil paint. It would also hold up much better than chalk in the long run as well.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

If you use pastels and enjoy them that is great, I don't want to try and change anyone's mind but they are not the same as quality pigments. Yes they do their job well and can be effective but they don't have the same ability as quality pigments. You are not going to make pigments from pastel chalk, you are going to make ground up chalk dust. You can probably get the effect you want, but they are not the same at all.

As mentioned, there is a binder in MIG brand pigments that no other pigment has (nor pastels). Well except for the AK Interactive new pigments but that makes perfect sense considering it's Mig Jimenez's new company, he knows the secret ingredient.

As far as getting it into the tread of a tire simply slosh it on thickly, let it dry and wipe it off the surface leaving it in the tread pattern. To be perfectly honest though, you could probably get this effect much better with a 'buff' colored oil paint. It would also hold up much better than chalk in the long run as well.

Lets not forget the Vallejo Pigments. Didn't know AK had or were going to the pigment route this time around.

 

[redraider56]

I have looked into the powder pigments, but I dont model armor, and thats what seems to be the primary use for pigments. It wouldnt make sense for me to buy a lot of pigments for aircraft since you dont see mudcaked Mustangs and Lightnings . Chalks are a different story and I have a alot of uses for them, so thats why I'll "stick" with them (pun intented). I appreciate all the replies, though. If I ever do get into armor I know who to ask now

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

There are lots of colors in the pigment lines that can be used for all sorts of modeling.

Blacks, browns and greys for your exhaust and gun powder staining.

No you aren't going to find aircraft covered in mud....but anything landing on a grassy or sandy field when it is wet is going to kick up some dirt, so some mud colors to the underside where the wheels could kick it up wouldn't be out of the question.

If you are using chalks now and it works...perfect, but I would buy one pot of pigment, a color you use all the time, and give it a try, you might get hooked on them!

 

[ScaleModelMadman]

Lets not forget the Vallejo Pigments. Didn't know AK had or were going to the pigment route this time around.

I haven't, I have like twelve bottles of Vallejo pigments and they do not behave quite like MIG pigments. They are like artist pigments, they don't have that adhering quality like MIG's.

The AK pigments right now are few and far between and are only available in packaged sets like "heavy mud" and "engines and metal" (or whatever they are called) I was given separate products to mess with and they are IMO just as good as MIG Productions products.

They even started making bottled filters. I think it would be a safe assumption that everything Mig did with MIG, he will do with AK.

[attachment deleted by admin]

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

I just got the NATO set to try out on the Ozelot whenever I get to that stage (no where near yet....lol). While I liked what the Mig filters did...I wasn't crazy about how harsh of an enamel they were....I mean it ate glue joints that were done with Tamiya X-Thin....which I didn't think there was much out there that would do that.

Personally I don't find much if any difference with the Vallejo pigments, mind you I have only used a couple of colors so far, as I have a bunch of left over Mig to finish up....but what I did use on my Zero, seemed to work the same.

Actually talking to Mike Vallejo today when he was here, and he said most of the big names in pigments all start out with the same base pigment, and actually told me that what Mig buys and what they buy is actually the same product, but then they stray apart as to what they use as binders. Mike was telling me that they don't package them on site and actually contract that out, as he said the pigments are just "too messy" to have in the same factory as the paint, so it is just contracted out to be made. Quite an interesting conversation we had.

 

[sunsanvil]

I've had fantastic results with the Vallejo pigments!

Since its been mentioned, I'm really skeptical about whether either Mig or Vallejo have an actual "binder" though. I think that might be some marketing slight of hand. Think about it: if they did you would not have the fine fine powder in the jar: you would have clumps! Its impossible for a microscopic grain of iron oxide or carbon black pigment to selectively stick to you model...but not to other grains of pigment. Everyone recommends doing dry applications over a matt finish for obvious reasons: the irregular surface gives the power grains something to sit in so to speak, but its not as if they are "bound" to the surface. Unless you apply with a medium, or you overcoat a dry application with a mist coat of varnish, a single ill placed grab of the model and you kiss your laboriously placed weathering good bye.

The real difference I feel between pigments and ground up chalk, other than the fact that the pigments are ground much finer, is that with pigments you get 100% color. With chalk you get a little bit of color and a LOT of gypsum (what modern chalk is made of).

 

[ScaleModelMadman]

Think about it: if they did you would not have the fine fine powder in the jar: you would have clumps!

Sometimes with MIG pigments this does happen, especially if the product gets damp. I've returned clumpy pigments at their cost before and they gladly replaced them and I've heard of it happening to others.

I have absolutely no doubt there is a binder in MIG pigments. Just sticking your finger in the jar and trying to wipe them off should be enough to show the difference. I guess I'll just have to make a video.

 

[ScaleModelMadman]

Threw this together in a little over three minutes but edited out the AK bit because it isn't really being debated here, then I did a quick voice over and uploaded to youtube. I had planned on a much bigger production but after seeing these two short bits put together I didn't see the need.

You can clearly see the difference between the two brands and how they perform right there on the screen, no slight of hand, just straight from the bottles.

After hitting play, select 720p as this should be in HD

PIGMENT-TEST

 

[Quaralane]

Thanks for sharing that test, Ken

 

[sunsanvil]

That's a great demo of the two products. Clearly the Mig is a more complex "weathering product" (reminds me a little of the Tamiya weathering sets) whereas the Vallejo is more of a pure pigment. Which one a person uses I think would come down to personal preference and how you like to work (I'd still be compelled to overcoat any of them 'cause I'm paranoid like that ).

 

[Junkie]

Nice video. Great demo. Nice clear picture too.

 

[noname]

It actaully looks like the Mig pigments stick too good. They cover so well it may take extra work to make a lighter effect. I also have never used pigments. Nobody sells them near me and I haven't had any extra $$ laying around to try them. All I've used so far is chalk pastel. Ya, they rub off easy but you can rub them in and fix them if you want. I usually just don't pick them up where the chalk is applied. I like to use whatever I have laying around. Not that I wouldn't like to try some aftermarket products, I'm sure they are great. But, I don't like to believe I have to have such and such product to keep up. If that is the case this hobby will get more and more expensive. Then I'd need a bunch of shelves to hold all these accumulated products that keep coming out.

Remember too, the old fashion way works well too. If you want dust, you can just spray a fine coat of appropriate colour as needed. Blend this with a little chalk pastel (or pigment) and you have a nice effect. I think it's been said before that what Mig was doing with his products was making some ready made effects that made weathering less of a hassle. It's about convenience. What bothers me is that, although they probably are awesome to work with, everybody in the magazines and elsewhere tend to lead people to believe that you just have to have them. That's just silly. I think Mig was recognized as a good builder/weatherer before he came out with his products. It's not always what you have but what you do with it. Isn't that what our wives tell us.

 

[Junkie]

True noname, true. Like every time I complain about not having a ride on mower when I push mow the lawn.

Something like that anyway.

 

[the Baron]

I'm too Dutchy, which is our euphemism around here for "cheap". I'm perfectly happy with my artists pastel chalks, and can't see shelling out the bucks for the more expensive products. But as has been noted, suum quique, whatever works for each of us.

By the way, I use real rust, too. One the guys in our club is a machinist, and after cleaning out some milling machine in his shop, he brought in a restaurant-grade-sized coffee can full of powdered rust. We shared it out in whatever little containers we could find (old paint jars, film canisters, etc). It looks just like the real thing