Question for upper management

[Jim62]

I pesonally don't get concerned with other people's emotional instabilities. It represents a time in history that should not be forgotten. Some folks here in the U.S. get upset over a confederate battle flag, personally I think it's a cool looking flag. Erasing anything from history is a dangerous road to go down.

 

[airdave]

Funny you bring up the Confederate flag...not to start a whole new debate...but a few years back I commented on another forum during the "General Lee" uproar.
Being a car nut, I knew the "General Lee" quite well, and never thought of it as anything more than a Dodge Charger with a cool paintjob.
Being a teen of the late 60s and 1970s, I grew up knowing the Confederate flag as a cool graphic art design that was used in many decorative ways.
But, most importantly, as the "rebel" flag, a new symbol of rebellion and change.
My point is, somewhere in the 1960s that flag was re-appropriated for a new generation, given a new meaning, and new purpose.
It is a part of history and for that reason can not be denied or forgotten, but it can be given new life and new purpose.
I'm not suggesting the swastika should be re-used that way, just that it existed long before the reich came along, and it can exist long after in a better way.
Worrying about a small swastika on a historically accurate plastic model is definitely a waste of time.

 

[Edbert]

Being a teen of the late 60s and 1970s, I grew up knowing the Confederate flag as a cool graphic art design that was used in many decorative ways.

I think I'm a few years behind you, graduated HS in '82 @ 17yo. But that HS was called "Robert E. Lee" and those flags were EVERYWHERE at pep-rallies and sporting events, it was our "pride symbol", not to open another can-o-worms.

Before you start thinking this school was out in the redneck sticks it was not, it was a central school (not even the suburbs) of the 4th largest city in the US. It had an extremely diverse student body, with almost 20% Asian (many "boat people" from Vietnam settled in Houston in the '70s) but was over 20% black as well. And yes, those non-white students were cheering and waving that flag too, we had them in place of our (front) license plates on our cars. Nobody, and I mean none, bitched about it or clutched at their pearls. They'd have been ridiculed if they had.

Just chiming in to support what you said Dave, all of this outrage is manufactured astroturf, it exists to make losers-at-life feel better about their sorry existence.

 

[Jakko]

all of this outrage is manufactured astroturf, it exists to make losers-at-life feel better about their sorry existence.

No, it's not. Attitudes change, about everything, and older generations frequently react to that by clinging to their version of things more fervently in much the same way the younger ones go against them. The main thing that's different today compared to even twenty years ago is that the Internet makes it far easier for new idea(l)s, and the reaction against them, to spread quickly. But it's really no different from the attitude towards "long-haired hippie freaks" of the late 1960s, to name one example.

 

[blakeh1]

We are modelers and as such, when building military models, need to show them with their proper flags / emblems.
I do not see any issue if treated as such, and not as "propaganda".

Some people are indeed still very sensitive re the WW2, however, even if history is not to be forgotten, this is past and happened more than 80 years ago.

And same problem could apply to other nationalities or wars.

Btw, I am French.

I agree. If modeling a subject, I want to make it as accurate as possible

However I do feel conflicted about modeling subjects from "the other side' in general

For example
I love WWII Naval stuff. That includes Japanese ships

The conflicted part comes in modeling something like the Akagi
It was one of the carriers that launched a brutal attack against Pearl Harbor where many American lives were lost,

I can't help but wonder how a WWII Vet who served in the Navy and was possibly stationed there might think of me proudly displaying my painted plastic "honoring" that ship. How would someone who was on a ship that was sunk or damage by Kamikaze attacks in the Battle of Okinawa be happy to see my Zero. Would my grandfather who was a WWII Navy vet and had a tattoo on his hand commemorating all the friends he lost at that battle be happy to see my IJN collection. Maybe they would care, maybe they would not. It is not for me to decide

Now the reality is, I just think it is a fascinating subject that looks cool and obviously am not condoning anything, but then again I am just a modeler modeling historical subjects

After all, no one will get mad if I model an Imperial subject from Star Wars for example. I can't help it if the bad guys ships have cooler designs that I would like to model. Plus you need some "bad guy" models for your "good guy" models to fight

Also time has blunted the impact of things like that.
i.e. there are a lot fewer people these days who would have been directly involved, and for much of the last few younger generations it has no more emotions or stakes attached to it than some fictional movie or even some battle that happened in ancient times

However, unlike certain other things, I can see how the stigma for a Swastika has persisted.
It is still in use today by certain groups as a symbol
i.e. the reality is it can still be too close for comfort even today

Am I offended by seeing it on a model?

No, as long as it is not overtly glorifying anything with a clear ulterior motive (for example, the builder is posing in a KKK Hood and his tag is accompanied with some rant about master races)
Otherwise it is no different than browsing through some pictures of WWII events

 

[wjbrandel]

My Dad and Granddad had a simple way of looking at things like that.

Flags and symbols should never be banished, but always respected because for every flag or symbol odds are that someone laid down their lives for them.

For Dad and Granddad the country or ideology that was encapsulated in that flag or symbol didn't matter it should be respected even if you disagree with the ideology.

Just my 2 cents

 

[airdave]

I just had a thought...about how silly it is that we tolerate scale models of Nazi WW2 weapons and vehicles, and yet make a big fuss over the swastika logo?
If it is such offense, then the vehicles themselves should be even more offensive (for the damage they caused in war).
The swastika didn't start the war, Hitler did. And yet, I can post a photo of Hitler, but Karen/Kevin wants to censor the swastika on his arm.
All seems a bit ridiculous and naive to me.

In a slightly related topic - I design tabletop games.
And I recently published a pseudo-WW2 air warfare type game that uses cards and dice.
I do all my own artwork, and I created aircraft for the game cards based on Allied and German aircraft.
But I deliberately did not put any insignia on the planes.
Not because I didn't wish to offend anyone, but because I didn't want the game to reference Allied or German sides, or actual history.
It's meant to be player versus player (or solo player versus the game).
But I'm sure someone will assume it was just censorship on my part. lol

 

[Edbert]

No, it's not. Attitudes change, about everything, and older generations frequently react to that by clinging to their version of things more fervently in much the same way the younger ones go against them. The main thing that's different today compared to even twenty years ago is that the Internet makes it far easier for new idea(l)s, and the reaction against them, to spread quickly. But it's really no different from the attitude towards "long-haired hippie freaks" of the late 1960s, to name one example.

I'm way beyond attitudes, those definitely change with the breeze. I'm in opposition to rewriting history. Clinging to "versions" is literally arguing over fiction.

When I said manufactured I meant that the average activist on the street (whatever new cause-celeb they have this week) cannot answer basic questions about the ideology that has them outraged.

Besides, I had hair that reached below my shoulder blades recently.

 

[airdave]

Besides, I had hair that reached below my shoulder blades recently.

so, what you're saying is you have a hairy back?
eww you freak

 

[Jakko]

When I said manufactured I meant that the average activist on the street (whatever new cause-celeb they have this week) cannot answer basic questions about the ideology that has them outraged.

Neither can the average voter about the standpoints of whichever person or party they've voted for.

 

[Edbert]

so, what you're saying is you have a hairy back?
eww you freak

Only gets freaky when I braid it!

 

[Aya]

Hi all.
Just been having a read through this thread, very interesting points of view, also well put too. I find the whole thing quite intriguing, as I was removed from YouTube some months back for apparently breaking their inclusivity rules, I guess that a person/people had taken offence at a post of mine. Strangely I have never posted anything that could be considered remotely offensive, I have always been complimentary to model builders and their builds. Sometimes I posted on Music items re: certain bands and or tracks, again always polite. Anyway after scratching my head trying to discover what I may have done, it occurred to me that my Avatar was of a model figure of Heinze Gudarian, wearing an Iron cross. I think this must be what caused the problem???? It seems ludicrous that a 2" high figurine could have been my marching orders. Aya.

 

[airdave]

youtube (like facebook) has AI inspections of every image and comment, and they have a list of red flag items.
Their practice is blanket censorship with no exceptions just to avoid future litigation.
I don't blame them, because there are so many users intent on spreading hurtful things,
but it can be annoying for the average user.
Innocent posts regularly get caught up in the policing.

I have a friend who is an airbrusher and he does body painting too. Mainly painting women's boobs at biker events.
Nothing rude or nude, all in good fun and acceptable taste, but sometimes a bit risque.
He regularly posts photos from the events and regularly gets infringement notices and has his photos taken down.
Nobody complains, it's just the facebook AI police.
It's ridiculous when you consider the crap that is posted and allowed on facebook.
Countless "see-thru" clothing videos, or fake breastfeeding tutorials. Not to mention the actual sex related stuff.

And then there's always the issue with karens and kevins.
It only takes one prude or self-righteous namby-pamby to send a complaint.
And it's usually because they are ignorant of what they actually see, or ignorant of actual history.

 

[Jakko]

It's ridiculous when you consider the crap that is posted and allowed on facebook.

What irks me about this in general (not just on Facebook, which I don't want anything to do with anyway) is the American prudish mentality that gets forced on the rest of us, and which most then don't even question and then begin accepting without even realising it.

Or as it's sometimes put: There's apparently no problem with seeing lots of people get beat up and shot, but heavens forbid there would be even a hint of nudity.

 

[Edbert]

There's apparently no problem with seeing lots of people get beat up and shot, but heavens forbid there would be even a hint of nudity.

Youtube is full of people fighting but nothing gets blurred until some woman's top gets pulled off.

The exceptions are blood or gunfire, those have to be obfuscated too.

 

[Jakko]

I was more thinking of this attitude in general, not on any specific (anti)social media platform. But yeah, the example of YouTube is a good one, or some years ago, Facebook censoring classical paintings by some of the best artists who ever lived, because they had naked women in them. Or, even, this "NSFW" warning you see in lots of places. I mean, WTF?!

 

[airdave]

LOL I saw a "sensitive content" warning a few minutes ago blocking a video on facebook.
I was required to click my acknowledgement to see the video.
It was a short video trailer for the game War Thunder. (Computer game with Planes and Tanks shooting at each other)
LMAO

 

[Airborne01!]

There is also the ridiculous situation where trigger warnings are issued to students about to study writers like Chaucer - ' This author invokes themes of misogomy etc and uses (nasty) words that relate to sexual interc ---rse (OOOOh Noooo!)' Don't even consider Shakespearean works such as 'Taming of the Shrew!
Steve

 

[Jakko]

interc ---rse

Now you're doing it yourself

 

[airdave]

So apparently if you say "pipe bomb" + "al queda" + "sexual intercourse" all in one post, the FBI, ICE, and Mark Zuckerberg, will all show up your house.
I'll let you know.