Question for upper management

[Rockin' Rob]

Sometimes I come across posts where someone has included pictures and they apologize for the swastika. Like, oops, sorry I didn't know what was in there or didn't pay attention blah blah. And I'm saying what the heck is the big deal? Isn't this scale modeling? Aren't a very large portion of you concerned with getting your model historically accurate?? World War II happened. You can't change history. Why do people get concerned about oh my God there's a swastika in the photo? Right now I'm building a Stuka and I'm almost done. Yes there's a swastika on the tail. I think I did a excellent job. And when I post photos I am not going to blur it or anything like that. Ridiculous

 

[urumomo]

That's never been an issue here .
I've never seen anyone say anything .
Historical accuracy is historical accuracy .

 

[Rockin' Rob]

That's never been an issue here .
I've never seen anyone say anything .
Historical accuracy is historical accuracy .

Oh? And this is just one.

 

[Rockin' Rob]

Personally? I don't think it's a big deal. Show it or don't show it. I was just wondering if there's something against posting a swastika in a picture of a model. If no one cares and neither do I

 

[urumomo]

I meant I've never seen anyone protest the appearance of a swastika here .
members can edit or censor whatever they feel like .
If someone doesn't want to see something , none of these threads are mandatory viewing .

 

[Rockin' Rob]

Damn straight! Change the channel if you don't like what you're watching

 

[Airborne01!]

Were we to 'cancel' the swastika should we also 'cancel' Liebstandarte' or Hitler Jugend (etc) tactical markings, or even the Fascines from Italian aircraft markings? Where would it end ...
Steve

 

[Belugawrx]

3 messages and 26 notifications....?
I think someone's trying to get ahold of you Rob..lmao

 

[locomotive]

I think it's ok that people recognise other people's sensitivity, but that's just being polite. But if someone is offended, then perhaps they are in the wrong thread/ board?
Personally I struggle with Ambulance service documentaries on tv because of past trauma. My wife loves them, but I don't stop her watching them. I just go read or model.
So yes, recognise that some people may have an issue, but we can't just ignore these things happened, and to do so would be ignoring the warnings of the past.

**** me that got a bit deep!

 

[kevin]

I made a ME262 night fighter from Revell years ago. I was highly agitated that they didn't include the swastika decal for the tail. I had to purchase an aftermarket swastika decal sheet to complete the build.
It is what it is, what happened happened.

 

[urumomo]

I made a ME262 night fighter from Revell years ago. I was highly agitated that they didn't include the swastika decal for the tail. I had to purchase an aftermarket swastika decal sheet to complete the build.
It is what it is, what happened happened.

some kits give you the swastika decal deconstructed .

 

[Rockin' Rob]

3 messages and 26 notifications....?
I think someone's trying to get ahold of you Rob..lmao

Sorry, that flew right past the top of my head. Three messages and 26 notifications??

 

[BarleyBop]

Check the top of your screenshot...

 

[Jakko]

Why do people get concerned about oh my God there's a swastika in the photo?

Because in many parts of Europe, especially among older people, this is a much more sensitive issue than it is to Americans, and, to a bit lesser extent, British people.

For one, in some countries it's against the law to display swastikas and related symbols except if it's clearly in historical context or to protest against the things the symbols stand for. These laws tend to be interpreted with little leniency, on the principle of "better safe than sorry", so that a model kit of a historic German aircraft is not considered to be in historical context — even if a photograph of the exact same real aircraft would be.

Even in many European countries where it isn't actually illegal, displaying swastikas for any reason is generally at least frowned upon by a lot of people, even on things like model kits, or it's felt to be in bad taste. Not by the modellers themselves, obviously, but "outsiders" who aren't aware of the historical context of the model may well think poorly of it.

 

[locomotive]

Yeah. What he said!

Because in many parts of Europe, especially among older people, this is a much more sensitive issue than it is to Americans, and, to a bit lesser extent, British people.

For one, in some countries it's against the law to display swastikas and related symbols except if it's clearly in historical context or to protest against the things the symbols stand for. These laws tend to be interpreted with little leniency, on the principle of "better safe than sorry", so that a model kit of a historic German aircraft is not considered to be in historical context — even if a photograph of the exact same real aircraft would be.

Even in many European countries where it isn't actually illegal, displaying swastikas for any reason is generally at least frowned upon by a lot of people, even on things like model kits, or it's felt to be in bad taste. Not by the modellers themselves, obviously, but "outsiders" who aren't aware of the historical context of the model may well think poorly of it.

 

[airdave]

I've been part of the paper modeling community for 20 years and this is something of a regular issue.
Partly because the hub of printed paper model publications is in Poland.
Where they are known to completely remove swastikas (on published model kits) or censor the artwork to avoid having their publications blocked.
In the same regard, you'll often find on the central European forums, swastikas are censored or banned.

Rob posted(#3) my post and comments regarding the swastikas.
I understand he was not singling me out.

Normally I make no comment or apologies for referencing history as it was.
I'm English, and Brits aren't bothered by the war and we have fun with it. We love "bad taste".
To me, a swastika is like a swear word - it's only insulting if it is used that way.

I only commented because:
a. I noticed there were more than one swastika in the photo and I didn't want anyone to assume I was making a point using swastikas.
b. I'm aware of the sensitivity of mid-Euro peoples and how it relates to scale modeling.

 

[GCB]

We are modelers and as such, when building military models, need to show them with their proper flags / emblems.
I do not see any issue if treated as such, and not as "propaganda".

Some people are indeed still very sensitive re the WW2, however, even if history is not to be forgotten, this is past and happened more than 80 years ago.

And same problem could apply to other nationalities or wars.

Btw, I am French.

 

[Jakko]

We are modelers and as such, when building military models, need to show them with their proper flags / emblems.
I do not see any issue if treated as such, and not as "propaganda".

I agree, but then, I am a modeller, like everyone else here, and have rather better knowledge of history than the average person

 

[Edbert]

I tend to ignore the topic entirely, but have seen kurfuffles on farcebook about models with the tail insignia before. Also the recent IPMS issue had a model on the cover that some Karen went crazy over and there were no swastikas in the picture, just a motorcyclist and his dog.

Unlike what is said about Europe, here in the states it is usually the young, overeducated and underemployed, tragically-single snowflakes, who spend their days looking for things to feel offended by.

Way I figure, if it offends you, look away, that is what I do with pop-music

 

[GCB]

I agree, but then, I am a modeller, like everyone else here, and have rather better knowledge of history than the average person

No one will challenge that!

 

[Jim62]

I pesonally don't get concerned with other people's emotional instabilities. It represents a time in history that should not be forgotten. Some folks here in the U.S. get upset over a confederate battle flag, personally I think it's a cool looking flag. Erasing anything from history is a dangerous road to go down.

 

[airdave]

Funny you bring up the Confederate flag...not to start a whole new debate...but a few years back I commented on another forum during the "General Lee" uproar.
Being a car nut, I knew the "General Lee" quite well, and never thought of it as anything more than a Dodge Charger with a cool paintjob.
Being a teen of the late 60s and 1970s, I grew up knowing the Confederate flag as a cool graphic art design that was used in many decorative ways.
But, most importantly, as the "rebel" flag, a new symbol of rebellion and change.
My point is, somewhere in the 1960s that flag was re-appropriated for a new generation, given a new meaning, and new purpose.
It is a part of history and for that reason can not be denied or forgotten, but it can be given new life and new purpose.
I'm not suggesting the swastika should be re-used that way, just that it existed long before the reich came along, and it can exist long after in a better way.
Worrying about a small swastika on a historically accurate plastic model is definitely a waste of time.

 

[Edbert]

Being a teen of the late 60s and 1970s, I grew up knowing the Confederate flag as a cool graphic art design that was used in many decorative ways.

I think I'm a few years behind you, graduated HS in '82 @ 17yo. But that HS was called "Robert E. Lee" and those flags were EVERYWHERE at pep-rallies and sporting events, it was our "pride symbol", not to open another can-o-worms.

Before you start thinking this school was out in the redneck sticks it was not, it was a central school (not even the suburbs) of the 4th largest city in the US. It had an extremely diverse student body, with almost 20% Asian (many "boat people" from Vietnam settled in Houston in the '70s) but was over 20% black as well. And yes, those non-white students were cheering and waving that flag too, we had them in place of our (front) license plates on our cars. Nobody, and I mean none, bitched about it or clutched at their pearls. They'd have been ridiculed if they had.

Just chiming in to support what you said Dave, all of this outrage is manufactured astroturf, it exists to make losers-at-life feel better about their sorry existence.

 

[Jakko]

all of this outrage is manufactured astroturf, it exists to make losers-at-life feel better about their sorry existence.

No, it's not. Attitudes change, about everything, and older generations frequently react to that by clinging to their version of things more fervently in much the same way the younger ones go against them. The main thing that's different today compared to even twenty years ago is that the Internet makes it far easier for new idea(l)s, and the reaction against them, to spread quickly. But it's really no different from the attitude towards "long-haired hippie freaks" of the late 1960s, to name one example.

 

[blakeh1]

We are modelers and as such, when building military models, need to show them with their proper flags / emblems.
I do not see any issue if treated as such, and not as "propaganda".

Some people are indeed still very sensitive re the WW2, however, even if history is not to be forgotten, this is past and happened more than 80 years ago.

And same problem could apply to other nationalities or wars.

Btw, I am French.

I agree. If modeling a subject, I want to make it as accurate as possible

However I do feel conflicted about modeling subjects from "the other side' in general

For example
I love WWII Naval stuff. That includes Japanese ships

The conflicted part comes in modeling something like the Akagi
It was one of the carriers that launched a brutal attack against Pearl Harbor where many American lives were lost,

I can't help but wonder how a WWII Vet who served in the Navy and was possibly stationed there might think of me proudly displaying my painted plastic "honoring" that ship. How would someone who was on a ship that was sunk or damage by Kamikaze attacks in the Battle of Okinawa be happy to see my Zero. Would my grandfather who was a WWII Navy vet and had a tattoo on his hand commemorating all the friends he lost at that battle be happy to see my IJN collection. Maybe they would care, maybe they would not. It is not for me to decide

Now the reality is, I just think it is a fascinating subject that looks cool and obviously am not condoning anything, but then again I am just a modeler modeling historical subjects

After all, no one will get mad if I model an Imperial subject from Star Wars for example. I can't help it if the bad guys ships have cooler designs that I would like to model. Plus you need some "bad guy" models for your "good guy" models to fight

Also time has blunted the impact of things like that.
i.e. there are a lot fewer people these days who would have been directly involved, and for much of the last few younger generations it has no more emotions or stakes attached to it than some fictional movie or even some battle that happened in ancient times

However, unlike certain other things, I can see how the stigma for a Swastika has persisted.
It is still in use today by certain groups as a symbol
i.e. the reality is it can still be too close for comfort even today

Am I offended by seeing it on a model?

No, as long as it is not overtly glorifying anything with a clear ulterior motive (for example, the builder is posing in a KKK Hood and his tag is accompanied with some rant about master races)
Otherwise it is no different than browsing through some pictures of WWII events

 

[wjbrandel]

My Dad and Granddad had a simple way of looking at things like that.

Flags and symbols should never be banished, but always respected because for every flag or symbol odds are that someone laid down their lives for them.

For Dad and Granddad the country or ideology that was encapsulated in that flag or symbol didn't matter it should be respected even if you disagree with the ideology.

Just my 2 cents

 

[airdave]

I just had a thought...about how silly it is that we tolerate scale models of Nazi WW2 weapons and vehicles, and yet make a big fuss over the swastika logo?
If it is such offense, then the vehicles themselves should be even more offensive (for the damage they caused in war).
The swastika didn't start the war, Hitler did. And yet, I can post a photo of Hitler, but Karen/Kevin wants to censor the swastika on his arm.
All seems a bit ridiculous and naive to me.

In a slightly related topic - I design tabletop games.
And I recently published a pseudo-WW2 air warfare type game that uses cards and dice.
I do all my own artwork, and I created aircraft for the game cards based on Allied and German aircraft.
But I deliberately did not put any insignia on the planes.
Not because I didn't wish to offend anyone, but because I didn't want the game to reference Allied or German sides, or actual history.
It's meant to be player versus player (or solo player versus the game).
But I'm sure someone will assume it was just censorship on my part. lol

 

[Edbert]

No, it's not. Attitudes change, about everything, and older generations frequently react to that by clinging to their version of things more fervently in much the same way the younger ones go against them. The main thing that's different today compared to even twenty years ago is that the Internet makes it far easier for new idea(l)s, and the reaction against them, to spread quickly. But it's really no different from the attitude towards "long-haired hippie freaks" of the late 1960s, to name one example.

I'm way beyond attitudes, those definitely change with the breeze. I'm in opposition to rewriting history. Clinging to "versions" is literally arguing over fiction.

When I said manufactured I meant that the average activist on the street (whatever new cause-celeb they have this week) cannot answer basic questions about the ideology that has them outraged.

Besides, I had hair that reached below my shoulder blades recently.

 

[airdave]

Besides, I had hair that reached below my shoulder blades recently.

so, what you're saying is you have a hairy back?
eww you freak

 

[Jakko]

When I said manufactured I meant that the average activist on the street (whatever new cause-celeb they have this week) cannot answer basic questions about the ideology that has them outraged.

Neither can the average voter about the standpoints of whichever person or party they've voted for.