Sherman III of 3 County of London Yeomanry, Sicily

[Richard55]

@Richard55 & @Jakko

There's a guy in my local club who is "VERY much into Shermans", ya'll should hook up for some beers!

(real or virtual)

Sounds cool

 

[Richard55]

I bought the original edition maybe five years ago when I came across it supposedly second-hand, except it was still in its plastic wrap when it arrived When the second edition was announced I decided to get it as well, despite the cost, and I'm glad I did.


That interests me very little, TBH I have a hard time keeping a lot of them straight, never mind recognising them by their badges etc. Rather, I tend to look at photos and copy what I see there, or for generic models, use those for inspiration of what markings are reasonable.


I'm not enamoured by Dragon Shermans, but I think at some point I'll get their Fisher M4A2, because the square drivers' hoods are so distinctive, and it's one of the few kits from which to build one. Unless, of course, I decide to start with an Asuka and convert the hoods with some plastic card

I guess Jakko ive got used to Dragons mishaps on the range of Shermans.What is a swizz is when they add a few 3d Pieces and add say magic tracks and hike the prices up to silly prices for kits from a fair few years ago.I followed Paul Budzik from Finescale scale modeller who did some great tweaks for the Tarawa M4a2 and others.Im going to add to my Sherman stash soon but ive got about a dozen 120mm resin figures i have to construct and paint for a cab driver i know.Got to try and summon up the zeal to do them tho.I think id rather build a Sherman!!!!

 

[Jakko]

Yeah, I used one of those new-and-enhanced Dragon kits for Cuckoo earlier this year, and TBH, the 3D-printed bits didn't get me hot or cold. I used the muzzle brake, but mainly because it was there and saved me cleaning up the plastic one — nothing seemed to be wrong with the plastic parts that are also in the kit for any of the 3D-printed bits.

 

[Richard55]

@Richard55 & @Jakko

There's a guy in my local club who is "VERY much into Shermans", ya'll should hook up for some beers!

(real or virtual)

Get your pal to join here and we can enjoy some Sherman chatter.Id be happy to and Jakko etc.
Richard

 

[Edbert]

Get your pal to join here and we can enjoy some Sherman chatter.Id be happy to and Jakko etc.
Richard

We have a weekly zoom call for an hour each Sunday, if he's on today I'll bring it up.

He was working on one using parts from I think three different brands recently, trying to use the best bits from each to make it "right". Sounded like major surgery to me. As long as there's the right number of road wheels and they are sort of evenly spaced, I would not notice anything wrong.

 

[Richard55]

We have a weekly zoom call for an hour each Sunday, if he's on today I'll bring it up.

He was working on one using parts from I think three different brands recently, trying to use the best bits from each to make it "right". Sounded like major surgery to me. As long as there's the right number of road wheels and they are sort of evenly spaced, I would not notice anything wrong.

Sounds great.Im a bit of a Frankentank modeller.Im not a rivet counter and class myself as average modeller,I dont mind the less fancied kits and try and do a bit of plastic card work.Im always interested in Sherman builds.
All the best from Richard

 

[Jakko]

As long as there's the right number of road wheels and they are sort of evenly spaced, I would not notice anything wrong.

The thing is that the more knowledge you have about any given subject (not just modelling, but in general), the more errors, mistakes, oversights etc. you notice about it in other people's work …

 

[Richard55]

Yes,Trouble is i forget so much info after reading up on stuff.If i ever do another Dragon M4a2 i will use the U.K Sicily one as i believe it has the corrected hoods as opposed to the Tarawa kit.But need other tracks if i decided to do a Normandy one.I particularly like 4th Armoured brigade U.K as it used the M4a1 or Sherman 2 in U.K service,I dabble in 72nd as Heller does super Sherman 1 and 3s and they even have 3 options for hoods in m4a2 kit,Cast,DV and welded.Only problem is the tracks arent so good and its foraging shows etc if you can find say a Dragon U.K Sherman but prepare to pay over 20 quid,But thats the sign of the times.

 

[Jakko]

Tracks are not that much of a problem anymore these days, though. Plenty of options in workable track, or if you'd rather have soft plastic tracks, you can likely get them from someone who has them spare after replacing them You certainly don't want to be using Dragon's "DS Styrene" ones, those sand-coloured soft plastic ones.

 

[Richard55]

Tracks are not that much of a problem anymore these days, though. Plenty of options in workable track, or if you'd rather have soft plastic tracks, you can likely get them from someone who has them spare after replacing them You certainly don't want to be using Dragon's "DS Styrene" ones, those sand-coloured soft plastic ones.

Oh for sure Jakko.They are the worst pain in butt.The Tarawa m4a2 i made appeared to have good tracks and when i stretched them around bogies yep they split in a few bits.Thankfully a friend had a spare set of T51s.Thats what im careful of at shows if Dragon Shermans are for sale.Thankfully most let you look in boxes,Magic tracks are much better thankfully.

 

[Jakko]

Last year, a friend gave me a Dragon M4 with DS tracks he had built. It had probably been sitting unpainted on his shelf for several years, because the tracks had hardened in places and oil leached out of them in others They probably don't do this when painted, but seeing that very definitely made me never want to use them again. Not that I have much — exactly once, I think, and replaced them on every following kit that had them. But this was the final straw

 

[Richard55]

Last year, a friend gave me a Dragon M4 with DS tracks he had built. It had probably been sitting unpainted on his shelf for several years, because the tracks had hardened in places and oil leached out of them in others They probably don't do this when painted, but seeing that very definitely made me never want to use them again. Not that I have much — exactly once, I think, and replaced them on every following kit that had them. But this was the final straw

Yes the leaching problem was a real problem.I sometimes go on e.bay to have a look for kits and if a Sherman takes my fancy and i see the dreaded DS tracks i swiftly move on.No wonder if i view a kit the seller starts dropping the price!!.Not worth the trouble at all,Then again some of the 3d tracks can be bstards,Heard horror stories of T.rex tracks breaking and shattering.

 

[Jakko]

I'm not sure I would want 3D-printed Sherman tracks, if they're as brittle as the QuickTracks Panther set I used on Cuckoo, anyway. I just foresee the end connectors breaking off every other link … Maybe I'm wrong, of course, but I don't want to spend as much on a set of tracks as on the kit they're for in any case.

 

[Richard55]

Yes for sure.I keep reading about end connectors breaking on various tanks,And as you say paying a fortune for replacements which is beyond a lot of us.Its a shame Panda tracks have gone.In an ideal world it would be joyous if a new company started catering for tracks in injection.I think a lot of modellers would be delighted.I saw Nightshift use Quicktracks if im correct on a build.Im going to keep an eye out for better Dragon kits with magic tracks.Telford Nationals in November will be my hunting ground.Keep going with your Sicily M4a2.

 

[Jakko]

I read somewhere that Squadron/Signal is going to take over the Panda tracks. I'm hoping somebody will want to act as a European distributor (preferably someone not in the UK — sorry ) for them, so it won't be necessary to order them from the USA with the huge postage cost and long waiting times that entails.

Other than that, these are good times if you want workable Sherman tracks in plastic. MiniArt has early ones, both American T41 and British WD-212, which are slightly harder to build than the Panda tracks but far more doable than those by Bronco or (I assume) Model Kasten. Both RFM's T62 and Gecko's recent T49 and T54E1 sets go together the same way so should be OK too. AFV Club's T51s are just as easy to build as the Panda ones, but need a little more cleanup. All we need, really, is a good set of T48s — the AFV Club ones are fine, except they fall apart too easily.

Anyway, for this model I bought a set of MiniArt T41s and have been cleaning those up while trying to come up with a good way to make the outsides of the blocks look worn.

 

[Edbert]

RFM's T62

This is what they (RFM) put in their E8 kit?

I'm really new/uninformed with modern kit makers and their various track systems. But in the last ~15 months I have assembled a Pz4IV kit from AFV that were terrible, a Merkava Mk IV set from Meng that were nice, and a PzV set from Friul (?) that were metal. The latter ones were the easiest to assemble and look good, but were really heavy for the plastic suspension.

The RFM Easy Eight kit is barely started, I just wanted to try out some track links to see how they worked, I think they might be the best of the lot in simplicity and operation, although the lugs that stick up (told you I know very little) in the middle are a bit hard to keep straight and easy to put in wonky.

 

[Jakko]

This is what they (RFM) put in their E8 kit?

No, those are T80 tracks

T62 track (not to be confused with the track from the Russian T-62 tank, of course) is for the "narrow" suspension and has a smooth "wave" type of profile with three prominent rivets:

(source)

RFM has a set of these because they brought out a Sherman VC (M4A4 with British 17-pounder gun) kit a few years ago, and this type of track was fitted to many M4A4s — though far from all — at the factory. RFM then released the tracks separately as well.

I'm really new/uninformed with modern kit makers and their various track systems. But in the last ~15 months I have assembled a Pz4IV kit from AFV that were terrible, a Merkava Mk IV set from Meng that were nice, and a PzV set from Friul (?) that were metal. The latter ones were the easiest to assemble and look good, but were really heavy for the plastic suspension.

It depends a lot on the manufacturer. Some are easy to build, others difficult, some totally impossible … And it can even vary for any given manufacturer. For example, AFV Club's tracks for the M48/M60 series of tanks are really good, but their tracks for HVSS Shermans and Pershings/Pattons are absolute rubbish.

I just wanted to try out some track links to see how they worked, I think they might be the best of the lot in simplicity and operation, although the lugs that stick up (told you I know very little) in the middle are a bit hard to keep straight and easy to put in wonky.

The guide horns RFM gives you a jig to do that with, but I found they stick in that jig so I instead glued the horns to the pins first of all and only then put together the blocks "around" the pins, using only a modified bottom half of the jig rather than both halves. I think I explained my method for them a while ago on here?

 

[Richard55]

I read somewhere that Squadron/Signal is going to take over the Panda tracks. I'm hoping somebody will want to act as a European distributor (preferably someone not in the UK — sorry ) for them, so it won't be necessary to order them from the USA with the huge postage cost and long waiting times that entails.

Other than that, these are good times if you want workable Sherman tracks in plastic. MiniArt has early ones, both American T41 and British WD-212, which are slightly harder to build than the Panda tracks but far more doable than those by Bronco or (I assume) Model Kasten. Both RFM's T62 and Gecko's recent T49 and T54E1 sets go together the same way so should be OK too. AFV Club's T51s are just as easy to build as the Panda ones, but need a little more cleanup. All we need, really, is a good set of T48s — the AFV Club ones are fine, except they fall apart too easily.

Anyway, for this model I bought a set of MiniArt T41s and have been cleaning those up while trying to come up with a good way to make the outsides of the blocks look worn.

Yes a nice set of T48s would definately be well recieved.Unless i look at Sherman Minutaie etc i never know what the tracks are always.

 

[Jakko]

By now, I can recognize and name the common types. It's the rare ones that are rarely seen that I have to check to see which is which.

 

[Richard55]

By now, I can recognize and name the common types. It's the rare ones that are rarely seen that I have to check to see which is which.

Yes some are misleading.As i like to build mainly U.K Shermans then at least they are pretty easy to identify.Am i right that some U.k Shermans in the desert used the "Grant/lee" tracks?,WE 210 or something like that,I usually prefer U.K Shermans in Italy and Normandy and especially the North irish horse in Italy.I hope we arent boring the other forum guys with our Sherman chat but its a good subject i never tire of

 

[Jakko]

The tracks you mean are called WD-212, to the best of anyone's current knowledge. WE-210 is apparently the designation for a length of four WD-212 links that could be ordered through the military supply system (say both Son of Sherman and David Doyle's M3 Lee/Grant). They're a British design for improved traction in sand, made by basically adding the double-H shape onto the face of T41 (plain rubber block) tracks. You're correct, those do appear on Grants in both the desert and the UK, as well as (mainly?) Sherman IIIs in the desert and in Italy. And also on Ram IIs in the UK. Here's a Sherman III with WD-212s on Sicily:

Grants came from the factory with them:

But that's because they were ordered and paid for by the UK, whereas no Shermans were — all of those were purchased by the US government and then assigned to the UK under Lend-Lease. I suspect therefore that any WD-212 tracks on a Sherman are replacements for the tank's original tracks. They look pretty new on the Sherman above, for one, when this particular tank is the same vintage (and manufacturer: Fisher) as Churchill that I'm building, so it would be a year old or so by this time the photo was taken. If those tracks had come with this tank through the desert and Tunisia, they would never look like that. Just compare to Churchill, how worn its tracks are.

 

[Richard55]

The tracks you mean are called WD-212, to the best of anyone's current knowledge. WE-210 is apparently the designation for a length of four WD-212 links that could be ordered through the military supply system (say both Son of Sherman and David Doyle's M3 Lee/Grant). They're a British design for improved traction in sand, made by basically adding the double-H shape onto the face of T41 (plain rubber block) tracks. You're correct, those do appear on Grants in both the desert and the UK, as well as (mainly?) Sherman IIIs in the desert and in Italy. And also on Ram IIs in the UK. Here's a Sherman III with WD-212s on Sicily:

View attachment 155891

Grants came from the factory with them:

View attachment 155890

But that's because they were ordered and paid for by the UK, whereas no Shermans were — all of those were purchased by the US government and then assigned to the UK under Lend-Lease. I suspect therefore that any WD-212 tracks on a Sherman are replacements for the tank's original tracks. They look pretty new on the Sherman above, for one, when this particular tank is the same vintage (and manufacturer: Fisher) as Churchill that I'm building, so it would be a year old or so by this time the photo was taken. If those tracks had come with tank through the desert and Tunisia, they would never look like this. Just compare to Churchill, how worn its tracks are.

Great pictures Jakko,Interesting tracks i think and something different on a Sherman,Yes im thinking tanks serving in Tunisia and desert would have some very chewed up tracks,My grandfather always said the desert isnt all sand boy in dunes like movies.When i go to model shows sadly i never see many Shermans apart from U.S versions usually M4a1 76s and Jumbos.Its a shame that IPMS didnt do a Sherman special interest group but its a large undertaking.I started off the Churchill SIG and its going great run by some nice guys when i had to give it up.We had a guy Jeff in our club who made some stunning M4s but sadly he has lost all interest which is a shame as his models were amazing and always researched greatly.

 

[Jakko]

My grandfather always said the desert isnt all sand boy in dunes like movies.

Much of the Sahara is rocks of various sizes, especially up towards Tunisia AFAIK, but they're not as photogenic as big sand dunes (Of course, what pretty much everybody forgets, or doesn't even know, is that "desert" doesn't mean "very big sandy place" but "very big place where it hardly ever rains" …)

When i go to model shows sadly i never see many Shermans apart from U.S versions usually M4a1 76s and Jumbos.

Odd, that. With Shermans so much is possible that that feels to me like those modellers are hardly even trying

 

[Richard55]

Much of the Sahara is rocks of various sizes, especially up towards Tunisia AFAIK, but they're not as photogenic as big sand dunes (Of course, what pretty much everybody forgets, or doesn't even know, is that "desert" doesn't mean "very big sandy place" but "very big place where it hardly ever rains" …)


Odd, that. With Shermans so much is possible that that feels to me like those modellers are hardly even trying

I think Jakko many build whats currently en vogue.So you tend to see stuff from Ukranian conflict so plenty of armour and aircraft,Loads of German armour of course with Panthers and Tigers,Telford tends to be better as you get interest groups and overseas clubs so get to see Leopards from a few guys,Reminds me ive still got my Dutch Leoopard 2a4 hidden away.

 

[Jakko]

You're probably right, yes. Whatever is newly released (and cool and interesting) gets built a lot, as do the old standbys. And I do want to see the 2A4 May I suggest this particular tank as a subject:

From the 1987 Canadian Army Trophy team (which they won, incidentally).

---

Anyway, on with Churchill The sprue with the .50-calibre machine gun was also missing in my kit … I almost feel cheated, if I'm honest, but I've got something like five of those sprues lying around so it's not as if I can't put a machine gun on this tank On the real Churchill, there was a cover over the machine gun when it came ashore, but I don't want to build it as it was at that particular time, so I'll add the machine gun as ready for use. And because the top cover is a separate part, I thought it'll be nice to show it open for once:

I added some details to the ammo box, as well as a correct holder for it, which it clipped into to fix it to the mounting. That is to say: all the white stuff on the right side of the ammo box is actually part of the mounting, but was easier to build onto the box, while I filed off the holder for the later (larger) type of ammo box from the mounting. All these details come from a thread on the Maple Leaf Up forum.

Annoyingly, I broke the spade grips in half when I was cleaning it up, and glueing it back on was not easy. And then it broke off again the next day when I was filing the ammo box holder off the mounting

On the tank (but still loose):

 

[Richard55]

You're probably right, yes. Whatever is newly released (and cool and interesting) gets built a lot, as do the old standbys. And I do want to see the 2A4 May I suggest this particular tank as a subject:

View attachment 155949

From the 1987 Canadian Army Trophy team (which they won, incidentally).

---

Anyway, on with Churchill The sprue with the .50-calibre machine gun was also missing in my kit … I almost feel cheated, if I'm honest, but I've got something like five of those sprues lying around so it's not as if I can't put a machine gun on this tank On the real Churchill, there was a cover over the machine gun when it came ashore, but I don't want to build it as it was at that particular time, so I'll add the machine gun as ready for use. And because the top cover is a separate part, I thought it'll be nice to show it open for once:

View attachment 155950

I added some details to the ammo box, as well as a correct holder for it, which it clipped into to fix it to the mounting. That is to say: all the white stuff on the right side of the ammo box is actually part of the mounting, but was easier to build onto the box, while I filed off the holder for the later (larger) type of ammo box from the mounting. All these details come from a thread on the Maple Leaf Up forum.

Annoyingly, I broke the spade grips in half when I was cleaning it up, and glueing it back on was not easy. And then it broke off again the next day when I was filing the ammo box holder off the mounting

On the tank (but still loose):

View attachment 155951

Nice .50 cal Jakko.Nice bit of detailing.The Leopard looks very eyecatching.One to consider for sure.

 

[Jakko]

It's the flag all along the grille on the back that makes it interesting as a model, really

 

[Jakko]

Now the cans to go on the front. On the glacis, next to the spare track links, are four-gallon water cans — which I didn't know even existed until someone told me that's what the things in the photos of the real tank are. I made them from plastic card and strip after he supplied measurements from 3D-printed ones he has:

It's four squares of 1 mm plastic card, 8.5 mm on a side, and eight pieces of 1.0 × 3.2 mm strip. As a modeller, you don't need to be a joiner: by glueing those pieces of strip as in the photo, you can avoid having to make neatly bevelled corners Once the glue is properly dry, it's just a matter of cutting off the protruding bits and then filing everything flat, possibly applying a little putty as well. Then I'll still need to round all of the corners for the shape of the can.

On the right mudguard was an odd rack hold two, two-gallon POL cans (Petrol, Oil, Lubricants). That rack looks like it was cut from another one, which happened to hold two cans nicely. The front/top is open, as if this is really only half of a larger rack. I made it by first making two Bronco cans and glueing them together, then adding the rack from plastic strip around them:

Those Bronco cans are very good for this, because the bottom is also replicated faithfully, with corrugations rather than flat like most of these cans in plastic or resin. After taking the photo, I did discover that I had missed a small piece of strip that should stick out from the one that's frontmost in the picture.

 

[BarleyBop]

four-gallon water cans

Nice, if you moved down the street, I could give you some! Working on North Africa vehicles, I quickly got familiarized with assorted flimsies, ealy German water flasks and assorted fuel/oil cans, and the British ww1 and ww2 camel cans...

 

[Jakko]

Thanks for the offer, but it's a bit far to travel Also, none of the cans in your photo is a British four-gallon water can …

---

The 2-gallon POL cans on the tank:

That rope was fun, I had to do it in a few stages to let the glue dry where it goes around corners. I have the strong impression that nobody in Churchill's crew was a sailor or a boy scout

On the back, I added straps to the jerrycans:

These are from an ancient Accurate Armour set of American jerrycan holders.

Using a motor tool, I distressed two sprues worth of track blocks:

First, I went over them with one of those ceramic sanding drum type bits, then with two different routing bits. The important thing is not to make the effect this too regular, so for instance, don't be tempted to add more texture only in places where there isn't any yet. Once I was done, I scrubbed all the loose material off with a fine steel-wire brush, and then I could cut them out and put them in a storage box.

I don't think I'll need to do more than two sprues. I counted how many outer blocks will be visible on another model, and got to under thirty per side. Since there are 28 block halves in a sprue, two should be enough. However, one is missing because I slipped and cut through the hole for the end connector, so I took that block out of the sprue immediately to avoid coming across it later when I'm building the tracks.