Another tragedy: 27 killed in Conn school

[hooterville75]

Agree totally Adam. I recently had a problem with people (neighbor rif raft) steeling from my carport and vehicle (I know my fault for not locking it). I live in a very tiny rural area with a population of about 4500 people. Its a very quiet and 47% type of area. I've always felt that we lived in an area where we could let things out in the open of semi value if working with them and not have to worry about anything being stolen.

Just in the last month I've had a Aluminum ladder, Miter Saw, and cordless drill stolen from my carport. My carport has a big enough area on it to store my riding mower in it and the lock that is on it I've recently found out is very pickable with a sharp or pointy object (thanks Tropper Fultz of the State Police) lol. The rest of the car pot is wide open. Add to that spare change, a pair of my daughters indoor soccer shoes and three nights worth of gas stolen out of my vehicle.

I got the s)#(s of this and called a buddy of mine over that is a PA State Trooper. He checked things out, gave me his advice and then filed a report on it all (insurance purposes). I asked him, legally what can I do about this should I catch someone breaking into my carport, vehicle or house again after this moment. In the end of the conversation, we ARE allowed to take action should the criminal be on our property DEFINITELY in the house. Should you ever catch someone in your house you can shoot to kill this individual as a defense to defending your family and property. But as he was walking out of my house door, to make a long story short, he turned to me and stated, should you catch someone breaking in or steeling from your residence or from your property make sure you kill him its less paper work for us LOL.

In the end what you stated is fully the truth Adam I totally agree with you. Its unfortunate the world has came to this but it is what it is and we must deal with it doing the best we can do doing what we feel is right for us.

 

[geegad]

dont you mean that native indians were invaded by an abusive and tyrannical government and im sure they wish that no the white man had stopped in the day they landed and raped the land and shot pretty much anything that moved...

and may i say that you said that its your right to defend your selfs well the human race has had no problems defending there house'castle'cave long before guns came along" guns bread guns"

i am 37 years young with a large group of friends from all walks of life and i work with 250 people who i no well and talking to them about this tragedy not one of them has seen touched or know anybody who has seen one or ever needed one to DEFEND them selfs... so you've got to ask your self do you really need an assault rifle in a CITY guns bread guns...i know its in your constitution but its an antiquated law..your just asking for another one of these shooting that innocent victim is going to die

 

[adampolo13]

and may i say that you said that its your right to defend your selfs well the human race has had no problems defending there house'castle'cave long before guns came along" guns bread guns"

Your right, human beings have been defending there homes etc long before guns came long. Just, like people used to use wooden pegs in buildings and now they use nails, Guns are the most modern and effective tool that can be used for self defense. Why do you think Police carry guns? They are effective.

I work with 250 people who i no well and talking to them about this tragedy not one of them has seen touched or know anybody who has seen one or ever needed one to DEFEND them selfs"

I'm glad you live in a place that "seems" safe. The reality is that noplace is truely that safe. The reality is that there will ALWAYS be people who intend to harm others. Just because I go through every day for many years/decads without being threatened doesn't mean that someday it wont happen.

The reality is that in places where guns have become highly regulated crime has gone up. Look at Australia, since they baned guns home invasion, violent robbery, car jackings etc has all gone up. Same thing in the UK, same thing in Germany. You can also look to Norway, the most gruesome mass shooting off all time happened in a place where guns are highly regulated. You can't tell me that one or two armed people would not have been a detirant for that guy.

... so you've got to ask your self do you really need an assault rifle in a CITY

1st, assault riffles are Fully Automatic and are not widely available for the public. 2nd The riffle used in the most recent shooting had cosmetic features that made it look like a military grade weapon but the entire firing mechanism is different. We can do the definitions dance all you want, but ALL guns are "Assault Weapons" in the hands of the wrong individual.

in your constitution but its an antiquated law..

The Constituion is not a set of laws. It is a document constructed to recognizes unailenable, God given rights that the government cannot take away. The reason the constituion was written was to protect the people from Government etc.

your just asking for another one of these shooting that innocent victim is going to die

Mass murders take place all over the planet, they have since the beggining of human society. It is a fact of life, peope will ALWAYS kill people. Personally, I want to have the best tool possible for defending myself. Guns are not the problem, human beings are the problem.

 

[The Nylon Gag]

This type of incident makes me extremely sad.
What human beings do to each other makes me ashamed to be one at times. Those poor, poor families, my heart bleeds for them.

As far as guns are concerned, I just want to add the perspective of an Englishman living in the USA. Most of the ban guns type comments i have read on several different web sites have mainly come from people living in European countries where this seems like the logical thing to do but its really not that simple.

We both have very different views from a cultural stand point on guns, growing up in England i never saw a hand gun except in the movies, i had seen and fired a shot gun at clay pigeons, once or twice, but that was it. I had never seen a rifle or machine gun except at a military show but never on the streets.
Then i moved to Miami 11 years ago, one of the most violent cities in American where everyone has a gun. I had been living here for about 2 years when a buddy of mine told me one day at work that he had something "cool" to show me in his car, under a blanket in the boot (trunk) he had a chrome plated AK47, i couldn't get away from the car fast enough because to me guns were just a big illegal red flag that i wanted to have nothing to do with, my buddy just couldn't understand my view point and thought i was just being soft. Talking to him made me realise that having a gun and understand about guns, and the need for them, is one of the biggest differences between Americans and Europeans, it is most definitely a cultural thing.

It still unnerves me to see a policeman with a gun on his hip, it unnerves me when my in laws come to Thanksgiving each with a Glock in a holster pushed down the back of their jeans (they are all licenced, so don't panic), i ask them why they need them and they usually say because you never know when you might come across a crazy person who wants to do you or your family harm, and you can be sure that the crazy person is going to have a gun, so. I just never grew up around guns, and i figure most English people haven't either, so don't be to hard on them when they say "it's simple just ban them" because they don't really understand American culture.
One question i get asked quite often in the US is "do the police in England really not have guns" and i say we have special firearms units that you see a lot more on the streets since September 11th but your average 'bobby' on the street has no gun. Most people look at me with a real questioning look on there faces of 'so how do they maintain control'.

I will never own a gun, because i really don't think could take another mans life, if he was threatening my family, well i hope i am never put in that position because i really don't know what i would do.

Gag

 

[geegad]

and may i say that you said that its your right to defend your selfs well the human race has had no problems defending there house'castle'cave long before guns came along" guns bread guns"

Your right, human beings have been defending there homes etc long before guns came long. Just, like people used to use wooden pegs in buildings and now they use nails, Guns are the most modern and effective tool that can be used for self defense. Why do you think Police carry guns? They are effective.

I work with 250 people who i no well and talking to them about this tragedy not one of them has seen touched or know anybody who has seen one or ever needed one to DEFEND them selfs"

I'm glad you live in a place that "seems" safe. The reality is that noplace is truely that safe. The reality is that there will ALWAYS be people who intend to harm others. Just because I go through every day for many years/decads without being threatened doesn't mean that someday it wont happen.

The reality is that in places where guns have become highly regulated crime has gone up. Look at Australia, since they baned guns home invasion, violent robbery, car jackings etc has all gone up. Same thing in the UK, same thing in Germany. You can also look to Norway, the most gruesome mass shooting off all time happened in a place where guns are highly regulated. You can't tell me that one or two armed people would not have been a detirant for that guy.

... so you've got to ask your self do you really need an assault rifle in a CITY

1st, assault riffles are Fully Automatic and are not widely available for the public. 2nd The riffle used in the most recent shooting had cosmetic features that made it look like a military grade weapon but the entire firing mechanism is different. We can do the definitions dance all you want, but ALL guns are "Assault Weapons" in the hands of the wrong individual.

in your constitution but its an antiquated law..

The Constituion is not a set of laws. It is a document constructed to recognizes unailenable, God given rights that the government cannot take away. The reason the constituion was written was to protect the people from Government etc.

your just asking for another one of these shooting that innocent victim is going to die

Mass murders take place all over the planet, they have since the beggining of human society. It is a fact of life, peope will ALWAYS kill people. Personally, I want to have the best tool possible for defending myself. Guns are not the problem, human beings are the problem.

well buddy i suppose it takes all sorts if we were all the same the world would be a sad place so my last words go to the familys i am truly heart broken and even more so now ive seen the pics of the people that have been killed

 

[adampolo13]

Hey Geegad, I'm sure there are more than a few areas we would agree on. One of them being the absolute sadness of the event. I pray for the families of those affected.

 

[geegad]

well i agree with you on both counts mucker

 

[ceecrb1]

I've been trying to avoid the online debaits about gun crime because I DO sit on the fence.

BUT what happened on friday really pulled on my heart strings. Its the first thing I've "experienced" as a father (of a 3 yr old boy) and it really got under my skin a lot more than say the Dunblane massacre, which was both on my sisters 16th birthday and just minutes away from my grandfathers house.
And yes I will admit to doing as obama said, giving my wee boy an extra hug on saturday night after I really learned about what had happened during the day.. he didnt understand what I was doing but it definately felt like the thing to do.

I come from the UK where the only REAL guns we see face-face are in the hands of the armed police in some of the airports. Just the sight of one makes us mentaly and physically recoil, as natural as it is to be around guns in the USA it is as natural for us to recoil. (no pun intented).
I now live in spain where the police carry pistols on their belts, and in my work I have to meet and speak with the police a lot.. and every time I find myself looking at their weapon and automatically recoiling. I just cant get used to it, while my spanish workmates dont notice them.

The diference for me is that, I have had my own air rifle from a very young age. I was taught to treat it with complete and utter respect by my one grandfather (who bought me it and it stayed at his house) who was a military policeman in WW2, and the other grandfather echoed the same leassons verbally (signals officer WW2) THen in ´97 I spent the summer in a scout camp in Ohio, and while I was there I shot pistols, .22 rifles, shotguns, compound bows etc etc.
We also visited a gun shop and to be honest it blew my mind and is one of my lasting memories for 2 reasons. I was 17 and the "SOOOO COOOOOLL!!" factor was way up there, but so was the "this is too easy" factor, it both scared me and impressed me that as scouts on site we were just handed a rifle and a handfull of bullets and told to point it that way.
I really cannot say that I wont do the same with my son, teaching him to fire my same air rifle, using it to learn a skill and how to treat something that should be used properly, and to pass on that same respect that was so very forced into the minds of both grandfathers from their experiences in world war 2. Neither ever told me a single war story, and now that I am older I see that as a really big sign of how it was at war and how they were and I think still are both effected by the experience.
Infact the ONLY words I ever heard about it from one of them was that he hoped that none of us grandchildren ever have to see or experience what he did.

The thing is I do understand the idea of it being constitutional. Its a young country and thats the basis it was built on, and if htey change that, then they can change everything and it makes that piece of paper worthless.

BUT I DO feel very strongly that things like that Bushmaster .223 which was used on friday are just taking that "right" way too far. Ok we can go into the technicallities of what is or isnt an assault rifle, but the thing is, it was just those rifles that gave me that "wow cooool" feeling in the gun store and give you that "wannabe soldure" and videogame feeling.
Maybe that rifle is ok, and the law should state mags of no more than 5 rounds or something... because the fact is that guy went into a school with a semi-auto gun that holds a lot of rounds and is really easily reloaded and designed for speed... be it fully auto or not. It just cant be jsutified as "hunting" or "target practice"..

it DOES have that "sex appeal" of the military style, even I want one! I just looks SO COOL and I think thats the problem. We can all pretend in our heads to be our fav movie character or game charcter, but some of us cant keep fantasy and reality apart... and for those people, it is made too easy for them, and WAY too hard for the average person to get out of the way. If he'd gone in with something else that didnt have the repeatability, less people would've been killed and those there might have even had a chance to fight back.

I just wonder if he felt like a kid playing a computer game with the cheats enabled, it was just too easy... and THAT is what I think needs to be addressed, but this wont be fixed over night.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

Why are people adamant about banning the assault rifle type guns? They are no more or less dangerous than any other type of gun.

As Adam said...most of what people refer to as assault rifles are full auto battle rifles. Now I am not up on US laws on full auto weapons, but if watching shows like Sons of Guns, and American Guns are any indication, then there are very few states that allow full auto weapons, and those that do, you have to be security cleared, and certified up to the wazzuu, before you can even breath on one, nevermind own one.

Besides which, for those that haven't fired anything full auto....I can tell you right now, that 90% of the people out there probably wouldn't hit anything with it, other than maybe the first round or 2, because of the muzzle climb on full auto, most of your rounds are going to go into the air above your target.

I can do a whole lot more damage with my little Ruger 10/22, .22cal, then most people would do with a full auto M4, just because the .22cal would be more controllable. For that matter, I could do a whole lot more damage with a civilian AR-15 (the civilian model of the military M4), just because of the fact that is it semi-auto and more controllable.

Here in Canada, an assault type gun is usually considered a restricted weapon, which means you can only use it on a range, and you have to have specific transport permits for each weapon, for each range you are going to....oh, and you are limited to 5 rounds in the magazine (Pistol mags are limited to 10), and you have to have proper firearms license to even own it, whether you take it to a range or not.

Problem isn't the guns. A gun is an inanimate, SAFE, object until it is in the hands of a lunatic.

Should we make it harder for a lunatic to get his hands on it? Sure, but how do you do that? In this case, the guy basically stole the guns from his mother, killed her, and proceeded to go on the rampage.

Now, we don't know the status of those weapons before hand, under lock and key, with trigger locks, etc, etc, but it is all a moot point if he could get at the keys to unlock it all. My guns are all under lock and key, but wouldn't make a difference if someone broke in and found the keys by chance, unlocked the safes and made off with my collection.

Keep in mind that this guy tried to buy a gun 3 days before the shootings, and was turned down because he didn't want to wait the mandatory 15 day waiting period and back ground check to see if he could own a weapon. As well, he was only 20yrs old, so wasn't old enough to buy a pistol. So one he was turned down, he basically stole his mother's firearms, and did what he did. So this was all premeditated on his part, and as such, if he couldn't have gotten a firearm of some sort, I am sure he would have found something else to use...a sword, knives, maybe even a bomb.

As Adam said....you can't take the guns out of the home, if you did, then you are just opening yourself up to more home invasions, car jackings, etc, etc, and of course with no means of defense, means more people are going to get hurt and/or killed.

 

[Grendels]

Here is my take on this whole situation:

First, this was a horrible event, one that should never happen but did.

But what makes me even more sick is those that would jump on this event as a means to and end. In other words the politicians who are using this as an excuse to take away rights. Or on the flip side to try and pass less restrictive gun control laws.

Why do we need a tragedy to do this? Can we not have this debate away from the killing of innocents?

What about the press and their role? They are as much to blame as the person who pulled the trigger. Yesterday my wife watched an hour long special on the event and what the cause was and who did it.

Why are we glorifying the attacker? Why does he become a celebrity? Shouldn't his name be banned for all time?

What about the rights of the victims? Shouldn't they have the right to privacy? Do we need to plaster their grief all over the TV?

Why do those in Hollywood come out against gun violence after making movie after movie about gun violence? Isn't that hypercritical behavior? Shouldn't we be throwing some blame their way?

In other words, I think we should stop using these sorts of events as a political statement and leave the victims to their grief. Let them morn their loss in solitude. They deserve respect and not to be shown on the evening news in minute detail.

 

[Grendels]

I just want to clarify my post a bit. It was not meant as a comment on this thread, nor a comment on the views of anyone who post here. It is just my general frustration at how the media and politicians are handling this situation.

I tried to keep my post politically neutral. If you want to talk politics don't hesitate to look me up on Facebook. I am not shy about my political beliefs there.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

No, I agree, the media glorifies it for everyone, yes we should know who did this, and maybe why, but that is it, don't make the guy into a celebrity.

I know there are alot of people on here from countries where guns are banned from the home and such, and they say that there isn't as much violence because of it. But really....how do you know?

Just like the US and Canada, the news doesn't report on how John Doe was held at gunpoint in his home while criminals robbed him blind. It isn't just a Canada/US thing, it happens everywhere, just the news doesn't report it.

Why you ask? Because it doesn't bring ratings, it is deemed not to be interesting enough to show. Sure you might see it on your local news cast or in your local paper, but that is about as far as something like that goes, we just don't hear about it, so we assume it must not be happening.

 

[ceecrb1]

Yeah I do have to agree about the media hype..

I even last night read an article about the media hype, by a journalist who is there, stating that the entire town is just flooded and drowning under news staff.
Aparently a local man entered a hotel reception and very calmly but publically asked news crews to leave and let the town carry out its grief process etc and that the news crews were not welcome.

Where he lost me, was that half way through the article he admitted just looking for ANY different angle from the other journalists.... ie that was his angle... Ie trying to clean his hands of any "guilt" but by doing so being guitly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20763752

 

[adampolo13]

Hey G, we are all adults here (hopefully )

Scott, in terms of the laws in the U.S. and the constitution. Well, the Supreme Court recently ruled 5-4 that the "right to bear arms" extended not only to the home but also to the individual outside the home as well. So, that means that I have the right to carry a gun for protection outside the home as well.

2nd. This is where it's going to get tricky for the Politicians if they try to pass the A.W.B. again.

The Supreme Court has also ruled that "arms" are defined as those weapons in "common use" by the general public. Guess what the most common firearm in the United States today is? You guessed it, the AR-15 platform. More AR15's have been sold in the U.S. than any other weapon. So, what does that mean, the AR15 is now Constitutionally protected. I don't doubt that the Politico's will try to pass the ban, may even happen, but this is sure to go to the Supreme Court.

Also, while as "loud" as the media is about how so many people are calling for "gun control" and another "A.W.B" the U.S. is seeing the largest increase in gun and ammo purchases in history. The silent majority is speaking with their wallets and buying up everything. Do a quick google search for "5.56 Nato" you wont find a single retailer who has them. Call up a distributor and you'll get the answering machine. The U.S. population will never give up their guns....

 

[dkev]

I'm not going to state an opinion. Because like most, I don't have the answers. But for those who wrap themselves in the 2nd amendment, let me say this. The 18th amendment was repealed by the 21st.

 

[adampolo13]

dkev, you are correct about the 18th being repealed by the 21st. All I was stating is that an AWB is going to be a lot harder to accomplish this time around based on recent Supreme Court rulings. Also, if further changes to the Constitution are proposed, based on the pretty major divid in the country, I could forsee a civil war developing. A lot of people don't see it or refuse to reconginze it but the U.S. is in some pretty hot water at the moment.

 

[TBadger]

Grendels had it in his post....no matter what, if you use a politicize a tragedy, no matter the side you're on, it makes that person an @&$. Plain and Simple.

I'm sure the anger will subside and debates will quiet soon enough, plus I can stop seeing posts every 5 min on Facebook.

Just pray for the families and send positive energy. Don't blame the lack of God in schools, the Gun Laws or Violent Entertainment. Just share the unity as a human being and share the empathy to help a community overcome a terrible act by a lone wolf....

* I , even being a supporter of 2nd Amendment Rights, believe we should leave the politics and religion alone on this one. Either lock this topic or just share only our collective well wishes*

-Brian

 

[ScaleModelMadman]

Either lock this topic or just share only our collective well wishes*

-Brian

Was thinking that from the get-go. Let me share what I have on facebook for those that don't have one:


"Somewhere in Connecticut a father stares blankly at computer monitor from his cubicle, numb to his surroundings, struggling with the realization that he will never see his son ride a bike. Not far from there, a mother cries uncontrollably as the bus accidentally stops at her house out of habit. In that same small town a big brother looks at the presents under the tree knowing some of them will never be opened by his sibling who is never coming home. Meanwhile, pro gun and anti gun people spend their time on facebook, bickering back and forth, arguing their personal opinions and views with fervor and passion as if that is even the least bit appropriate and respectful. My God, I am so ashamed. Literally sick to my stomach with guilt and embarrassment."


I'd rather not have to lock this topic but maybe we should all just share a moment of silence for those whom this effects, put our opinions and views aside in respect for them and go build some models.

 

[Black Sheep 1]

I started this thread on the 14th out of pain and sadness on what had happened.
I wanted to vent, express my pain or something.
Whatever it was I wanted to express, it sure as hell was NOT to start a gun control debate on this forum.
That topic falls into the area of politics and there are two things I will not discuss in public, Politics and Religion.

Now, I have not posted any comments on this thread for that same reason.

Now I feel I have to make just one comment and the will be it:

Some have asked, "why do you need an assault rifle?"
MY answer to that is what business is it of yours?
I don't need it, but I want it and, if I can afford it, I will have it.

Gun control? You can't. Not in this culture, not in this country.

There will always be those who prey on the innocent and the weak.
There will always be crime.
There will always be bad people.
There will always me mentally impaired people.

There is no easy solution.
But for the moment, I pray and cry for those innocents who were taken and the brave souls who gave their life to protect the others.
R.I.P.

 

[Junkie]

...I pray and cry for those innocents who were taken and the brave souls who gave their life to protect the others.
R.I.P.

This is a fitting ending to this thread.