Mission Model paints are not waterproof?

[blakeh1]

I sprayed a model a couple of days ago with. Coverage on it was horrible over a black base so I quickly rinsed it off under water. After letting things dry, I did a coat of Tamiya XF-20 to cover most things. once dry, I airbrushed a coat of the missions models stuff and the color looked perfect, and everything seemed to be working fine. The next day I noticed a few spots that could use a touchup, so I did a few touchup areas. Let it dry for a few hours, then taped off some areas for white markings. A few more hours went by and I sprayed some white Tamiya over it. When taking off the tape, I noticed what seemed like the tape glue sticking to the paint. However I think it actually was just the mission models paint that had turned back to tacky

Thinking I could use water to help get what I thought was the tape glue off, the Mission Models paint actually started to dissolve. It was behaving like water color or guache would when and reactivating. So much so that I actually wiped off all the paint that had been applied in the last few days cleanly right down to the Tamiya base XF-20 base coat.

Has any one here used Mission Models paints before and have you ever had a problem with them not being waterproof.

Possibly a bad bottle of paint, or should I just stay away from that paint line all together.

Never had problems like that with Vallejo or Tamiya

 

[urumomo]

You can't put it down too dry .
Need to be careful with the distance and pressure when spraying it . The surface needs to be wet with paint .
PLUS , a couple hours is nowhere near long enough to cure . I always give it days and if I want to continue layers more quickly the work goes into the food dehydrator @ 110 F for the day . At least 10-12 hours at temp .
I have had that exact same issue with it but not when adhering to the above methodology .
They recommend adding their polyurethane additive which really helps this issue but that's just one more thing to do ,

I've been switching to the AK Real Colors which is similar to Tamiya's chemistry .

 

[blakeh1]

You can't put it down too dry .
Need to be careful with the distance and pressure when spraying it . The surface needs to be wet with paint .
PLUS , a couple hours is nowhere near long enough to cure . I always give it days and if I want to continue layers more quickly the work goes into the food dehydrator @ 110 F for the day . At least 10-12 hours at temp .
I have had that exact same issue with it but not when adhering to the above methodology .
They recommend adding their polyurethane additive which really helps this issue but that's just one more thing to do ,

I've been switching to the AK Real Colors which is similar to Tamiya's chemistry .

Thanks for the info

Weird. I guess I was used to how Tamiya and Vallejo work

The first coat was put down Thursday and it wasn't until Saturday that I did another. Maybe that second coat and the touchup the next day reactivated the initial layer

I guess I will give it a week to dry then stick it in water and see what happens. Last thing I need is the paint to start dissolving and rubbing off when doing decals and weathering

Maybe do a clear coat with their brand as well?

I will have to check out the AK stuff. They seem to have all the needed FS colors

 

[urumomo]

You can use any clear coat , doesn't need to be their brand .
I actually ran into this delamination issue with that BV-155 camo job . Right after I sprayed down the MM atop the AK basecoat I remembered about it performing poorly if it goes down too thin .,, and it was weak as expected .
I overtopped it with Liquitex satin varnish before proceeding and avoided problems . I had to slather it with watercolor for a filter so that could have turned disastrous . .

The AK Real Colors is great stuff .
Pricey but what isn't these days .
I like the Createx paints a lot too . Good stuff and better price / volume . But , their color range is comparatively narrow .
The Createx appear to use similar chemistry as MM - same butoxy ethanol thinner and poly additive - but they definitely don't have the bonding issue . Plus , the pigment is super fine , high quality .

 

[urumomo]

https://forums.kitmaker.net/t/mission-models-paint-does-not-play-well-with-others/11100

 

[blakeh1]

https://forums.kitmaker.net/t/mission-models-paint-does-not-play-well-with-others/11100

Thanks!

"I have seen club members put dried mission model paint under a gloss coat and have water from a decal lift the paint."

That is what has me worried, I think despite loving the color I will try soaking it in water now and cut my losses and start over with a different paint brand

I'd rather not spend more money buying and and time trying to figure out the poly additive piece when other paints already work. In this case I only tried the Mission Models stuff because I had heard they were great paints and they seemed to have a good match for Light Gull Grey

And in all fairness, they might be great pants once you get all the factors dialed in correctly, it is just too fiddly and risky for me

 

[urumomo]

Understandable .
I don't buy them anymore since that Real Color covers what I need without these issues .
A year or two ago I went to use an unopened bottle of the MM poly additive that had been on the shelf a good while and it was cured solid , LOL .
A completely solid chunk of resin .
I have a bottle of the Createx version on the shelf that I keep , along with all things polyurethane related , at the back in the dark .
Might move this stuff to the fridge since it gets used so infrequently .
So there's that extra concern too . But , like I said , I haven't had any issues with the Createx straight from the bottle .

 

[Jim62]

You can't put it down too dry .
Need to be careful with the distance and pressure when spraying it . The surface needs to be wet with paint .
PLUS , a couple hours is nowhere near long enough to cure . I always give it days and if I want to continue layers more quickly the work goes into the food dehydrator @ 110 F for the day . At least 10-12 hours at temp .
I have had that exact same issue with it but not when adhering to the above methodology .
They recommend adding their polyurethane additive which really helps this issue but that's just one more thing to do ,

I've been switching to the AK Real Colors which is similar to Tamiya's chemistry .

I couldn't agree more with the food dehydrator. I just use Tamiya acrylics and cook the painted model in the dehydrator at 105 for 4 to 5 hours. It eliminated paint pull up issues I sometimes ran into.

 

[urumomo]

I cut one of the shelves out of a section and 2 flanking portions out of another shelf so I can fit larger items .
Can always zip-tie them back in if I need them .
Really speeds up the crosslinking with acrylic resins . Heat will accelerate the cure with alkyds also .

 

[BlackSheepTwoOneFour]

Mission Model paints are fantastic! Bear in mind Mission Model paints are acrylics. You need to use ENAMEL clearcoat over any acrylic paint. Enamels are oil based, acrylics are water based.

 

[urumomo]

You definitely don't need to use an alkyd clear-coat over acrylic color coats .
You can , but acrylic clear-coats work fine if you need them at all .

 

[BlackSheepTwoOneFour]

But if you're using acrylic or water based weathering products, it will ruin your paint. That's why enamel clear works as a safety barrier.

 

[urumomo]

Nope .
Why do you think this ?

 

[BlackSheepTwoOneFour]

Any weathering done on aircraft, armor, ships or whatever should follow these simple rules using clear oats. This was posted in another forum I belong to and is tried and true.

Enamel or lacquer wash need an acrylic clear coat

Acrylic wash needs enamel or lacquer clear coat

Flory wash can use either clear coat (enamel, lacquer, or acrylic)

The MOST important rule (I can't stress this enough).... Make sure paints and clear coats are thoroughly cured and dried before proceeding.

So I suspect the OP's issues is he never gave Mission Model a chance to cure and dry completely. He didn't elaborate what what he used for a base coat. Not to mention he immediately rinsed it off because it didn't lay down good. I don't know if he dint use their leveling thinner or what's thinner he used. So many missing information to determine what the issue is.

 

[urumomo]

None of that makes sense chemically ( with the exception of allowing full cure ) . In short , it's nonsense .

Mission Model paints need to go down " wet " . If they go down too thin and dry ( like spraying too far away from the work ) they have bonding issues .
This exact thing occurred to me when I did the MM colors over the liquid masking on that BV-155 . That was a atop a base color of AK Real Color , atop Tamiya's rattlecan primer .
After I sprayed the colors down , I remembered that they don't do well sprayed down super light like I did and expected to have problems .
They did have weak to no adhesion . Even after a conservative cure time . Like days and days in the food dehydrator at 105 F .
I top-coated it with Liquitex Satin Varnish and continued on with no problems .
This continuation included liberal mopping of water-color as a wash so plenty of water was mopped all over the build repeatedly .
No issues with the paint coming up after the varnish anchored it . The varnish also cured days in the dehydrator prior to the water color assault .
There was also enamel pigment fixer applied to areas .

Other than this weakness , MM paints are fine -- but I've switched over to AK Real Colors .

 

[blakeh1]

Any weathering done on aircraft, armor, ships or whatever should follow these simple rules using clear oats. This was posted in another forum I belong to and is tried and true.

Enamel or lacquer wash need an acrylic clear coat

Acrylic wash needs enamel or lacquer clear coat

Flory wash can use either clear coat (enamel, lacquer, or acrylic)

The MOST important rule (I can't stress this enough).... Make sure paints and clear coats are thoroughly cured and dried before proceeding.

So I suspect the OP's issues is he never gave Mission Model a chance to cure and dry completely. He didn't elaborate what what he used for a base coat. Not to mention he immediately rinsed it off because it didn't lay down good. I don't know if he dint use their leveling thinner or what's thinner he used. So many missing information to determine what the issue is.

I left some paint on a tail fin for a week or so to dry after the original problem, plus I had also sprayed some Mission Models Radome as well and that had dried for over a week.

Both came off with water. The Radome color stuck a bit more and actually kind of created a nice fading effect so I left it. I could have removed it with a bit more water and some scrubbing

The grey came off much easier and near instantly.

I did add a tiny bit more thinner to the grey. It was the Mission Models thinner

 

[BlackSheepTwoOneFour]

I sprayed a model a couple of days ago with. Coverage on it was horrible over a black base so I quickly rinsed it off under water. After letting things dry, I did a coat of Tamiya XF-20 to cover most things. once dry, I airbrushed a coat of the missions models stuff and the color looked perfect, and everything seemed to be working fine. The next day I noticed a few spots that could use a touchup, so I did a few touchup areas. Let it dry for a few hours, then taped off some areas for white markings. A few more hours went by and I sprayed some white Tamiya over it. When taking off the tape, I noticed what seemed like the tape glue sticking to the paint. However I think it actually was just the mission models paint that had turned back to tacky

Thinking I could use water to help get what I thought was the tape glue off, the Mission Models paint actually started to dissolve. It was behaving like water color or guache would when and reactivating. So much so that I actually wiped off all the paint that had been applied in the last few days cleanly right down to the Tamiya base XF-20 base coat.

Has any one here used Mission Models paints before and have you ever had a problem with them not being waterproof.

Possibly a bad bottle of paint, or should I just stay away from that paint line all together.

Never had problems like that with Vallejo or Tamiya

I went back and read and re-read your original post a few times and I do have one question. What tape are you using for masking? I suspect you're using regular masking tape not Tamiya or Frog painter tape. I don't know.

Tamiya masking tape or Frog painter tape really doesn't leave any glue residue when pulling off gently.

Then again, if paint is laid down thick, paint can seep under the tape. That's why it's better to spray in several light coats. Let the paint build up.


Masking after a few hours of drying is your first mistake. It should have been left alone to dry and cure for 24 hours.

I don't think you have a bad batch of Mission Model paint is the issue. More like user error. I've never had issues with Mission Model paints reacting with other paint brands.

I do not like Vallejo paints at all. They seem to leave a waxy look in my opinion. They're fine for handbrushing but airbrushing? Forget it. I've been heard far too many horror stories of them gunking up and ruining airbrushes. Yes, I am well aware there are Vallejo paints made specifically for airbrushing. Vallejo is a whole different beast chemically.

 

[urumomo]

Eye Roll

 

[blakeh1]

I went back and read and re-read your original post a few times and I do have one question. What tape are you using for masking? I suspect you're using regular masking tape not Tamiya or Frog painter tape. I don't know.

Tamiya masking tape or Frog painter tape really doesn't leave any glue residue when pulling off gently.

Then again, if paint is laid down thick, paint can seep under the tape. That's why it's better to spray in several light coats. Let the paint build up.


Masking after a few hours of drying is your first mistake. It should have been left alone to dry and cure for 24 hours.

I don't think you have a bad batch of Mission Model paint is the issue. More like user error. I've never had issues with Mission Model paints reacting with other paint brands.

I do not like Vallejo paints at all. They seem to leave a waxy look in my opinion. They're fine for handbrushing but airbrushing? Forget it. I've been heard far too many horror stories of them gunking up and ruining airbrushes. Yes, I am well aware there are Vallejo paints made specifically for airbrushing. Vallejo is a whole different beast chemically.

Tamiya tape

I would potentially agree with user error and not being ideal conditions as far as the grey, except when shooting the Radome yellow color my Tamiya white undercoat had been dry for at least a day or more. In addition the Radome yellow had dried for over a week before I got water on it

I primered black, then did a layer Tamiya Flat White around the nose after masking off the black. A day or two later I added the Radome Yellow(Tan?)

It did not come off as easily as the grey, but still washed off (you can also see the white chipped patch left underneath where some of the Mission Model LIght Gull Grey was that I originally missed cleaning off).

So I essentially will need to retouch up the black in this area as removing the MM paint really messed up the edges (although I kind of like the faded effect on the radome. Kind of a happy accident)



Unlike the grey, I did not mix in any additional thinner ( the grey just seemed really thick)

So I guess the grey probably was less durable since it had been thinner?

Obviously the paint is working for some since I have read good reviews, but I have also read a lot of horror stories

That means there is clearly something different with how they are using the Mission Models paint, but I am not sure exactly what. They obviously did not work for me like any other Acrylic paint I am used to working with

Do you mix in the poly stuff or shoot straight from the bottles?

That seems to be the key to durability from what I have read

My problem is that if that is the key, then the paints did not work as per the intended instructions on the back that says you can shoot straight from the bottle.
They really should clearly state that the additive is not optional if that is the case

 

[Davey]

Mission Model paints are fantastic! Bear in mind Mission Model paints are acrylics. You need to use ENAMEL clearcoat over any acrylic paint. Enamels are oil based, acrylics are water based.

Well i like MM paint and have quite a bit of it. Always went on smooth and perfect on my models, until while weathering a F6F Hellcat i shot acrylic chipping fluid over the MM finish and began chipping away to the Lacquer aluminum below the MM and it washed away my finish! LOL. so i did the same thing wiped away MM paint under running water and resprayed the camo, electing to chip with a brush instead of using chipping fluid. but next build i will cover MM paint with enamel clear! Thanks for the tip