Panel line shading still voodoo to me!
Anxious to see how you make out with the chipping!
Anxious to see how you make out with the chipping!
Border models zero
- Thread starter Rockin' Rob
- Start date
blakeh1
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FWISW...here is an example of chipping on a plane
This is roughly 5 months worth of weathering!
and another one
This is roughly 5 months worth of weathering!
and another one
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That's what I'm talking about.
Jakko
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Japanese planes were often very poorly painted, with no primer underneath, or even cleaning the surface before applying the paint, leading to the paint flaking off like you see in many photos, such as those above. This goes especially for Army aircraft, which looked like that throughout most of the war. Navy planes were much neater initially because they were well-painted at the factory as an anti-corrosion measure. That fell by the wayside eventually, though.
... unfortunately, my son can attest to that, with a Honda Civic that ended up looking like it was suffering from some skin disease!
I wouldn't want anyone stealing my superior nail status. Pantherman
Edbert
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"That color" appears to be very elusive, tomes have been written about it, and actual samples vary substantially. I look forward to what you do with it. I think I'll put my zero on the on-on deck circle. Want to clear off some underway builds before my 1/16th Halftrack comes in. I'd like to wait on that kit a while, but I also know my impulsiveness.
Question:
The silver underlay, is that enamel? Curious about the chipping method you will use as much as the color.
Edbert
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Always wanting more opinions...for a Pearl Harbor build...were the IJN aircraft all recently sprayed or at least repaired/patched?
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Primered with Tamia gray primer and then Tamia X11 Chrome silver. Then I sprayed that with gloss. My bottle of AK chipping fluid comes in tomorrow and from what I heard I'll give it two coats where I want to chip and then I think I will spray the interior of the landing gear Wells and then the closest green I can figure out using ja green xf-13. I've never chipped before so I don't know what I'm going to use. Toothpick, end of the paintbrush, the paint brush itself? It's all new to me. Oh and I'm going to use some shade of light gray on the bottom
Edbert
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I cannot help with any specifics regrading AK products, I used hairspray, Tamiya acrylic, and Testors MM enamel on my chipping attempt. Mine was also a south-Pacific example, those models are where maximum weathering is appropriate (IMO).
But one thing I can say is start with the softest most gentle tool/method you have. Work your way up into harder/sharper tools only if needed.
Escalation is easy, so is going too far too soon ;-)
blakeh1
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According to the sites I found pics they would have all been fresh painted for the Pearl Harbour attack
a few months later by the time of the Indian Ocean raid and Midway they would have started to show more wear
and second here
https://www.armouredcarriers.com/battle-for-ceylon-hms-indomitable-formidable
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I installed my 3 black needle in my Patriot and used X1 black to pre-shade the panel lines. I should have got them a lot darker because once I put on that silver they just disappeared. The hard part for me is getting the paint viscosity just right so that you can get down to the detail lines instead of putting down a half inch wide black line that suddenly blurbs out of your airbrush. I also have to work on holding the work right along with a steady grip on the airbrush so you can get straight lines instead of old man wandering lines.
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Maybe that's why I like those light gray zeros from the Pearl Harbor era. Brand new paint job brand new aircraft what's not to like? Plus they flew extremely well
blakeh1
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To make matters worse, Japan did not really have an FS color system, but instead the various manufacturers and shipyards each had their own versions of the colors (for example ships, particularly those built or refitted at the major shipyards of Kure, Sasebo, Maizuru, and Yokosuka, were painted in slightly different shades of gray, with the color typically matching the shipyard where the ship was last refurbished.
aircraft were in a similar situation, i.e. the green color could depend on where something was made
https://www.pmcn.de/English/Japan/Japanese Aircraft Colors.htm
Edbert
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Thanks!
I agree that seems to be the consensus. Many point out that some of the aircraft had been in service (I assume China) for a long time before 12/7/41. But I do think that most believe they were prettied up at least a little for that awakening of the bear bit. I mean, they had film crews out on the decks that morning filming the takeoff right?
Deleted member 11187
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Let's take a look at what we are aiming for and you can take it for what it's worth.
Like all of the combatants during the Second World War, camouflage and protection was the two main requirements of the paint used and by the time this point in history, everyone had at least 30 years experience.
The FS color chips are used as standard for 'me' to tell 'you' what the color looked like.
You could use the color chips from the Wally World/Benjamin Moore, but not everyone has access to those.
There are others. RAL, ANA, BS, just to name a few. I don't think FS is picked because of color selection.
Have you ever pursued the RAL catalog?
Hang on to your hats.
Japan, had a set of lacquered tiles with about 40-50 colors on it. The paints that the paint manufacturers made for IJN and the IJA used this as the standard.
Sit down, this is where gets good.
Japan did everything in its power to destroy as much record keeping as possible when the war was known to be lost by some.
There are three left known to exist.
One set was seen as recently as 20 years ago and examined by David Pluth of J-Aircraft site.
I believe he was allowed to bring in comparison samples to evaluate what was there.
Another set has not the light of day in 40 or more years and is part of a family heritage collection and may not exist now.
Big question mark, right?
The third missing set, is even more elusive.
None are for sale.
Anyway, sounds like the legend of Whooley Swamp or some campfire story of Robert Johnson.
Let me offer this as part of the internet rabbit hole I've been in.
If you'd like to take your own journey down the hole, can suggest Dave's site above, or a extreme favorite of mine Nicholas Millman's
Aviation of Japan dot com
My thing is colors.
I have more stalled projects, sitting around waiting for the elusive color to fall in my lap.
Don't work that way.
I am very far from being an expert and I have stated before, close is good enough.
Like all of the combatants during the Second World War, camouflage and protection was the two main requirements of the paint used and by the time this point in history, everyone had at least 30 years experience.
The FS color chips are used as standard for 'me' to tell 'you' what the color looked like.
You could use the color chips from the Wally World/Benjamin Moore, but not everyone has access to those.
There are others. RAL, ANA, BS, just to name a few. I don't think FS is picked because of color selection.
Have you ever pursued the RAL catalog?
Hang on to your hats.
Japan, had a set of lacquered tiles with about 40-50 colors on it. The paints that the paint manufacturers made for IJN and the IJA used this as the standard.
Sit down, this is where gets good.
Japan did everything in its power to destroy as much record keeping as possible when the war was known to be lost by some.
There are three left known to exist.
One set was seen as recently as 20 years ago and examined by David Pluth of J-Aircraft site.
I believe he was allowed to bring in comparison samples to evaluate what was there.
Another set has not the light of day in 40 or more years and is part of a family heritage collection and may not exist now.
Big question mark, right?
The third missing set, is even more elusive.
None are for sale.
Anyway, sounds like the legend of Whooley Swamp or some campfire story of Robert Johnson.
Let me offer this as part of the internet rabbit hole I've been in.
If you'd like to take your own journey down the hole, can suggest Dave's site above, or a extreme favorite of mine Nicholas Millman's
Aviation of Japan dot com
My thing is colors.
I have more stalled projects, sitting around waiting for the elusive color to fall in my lap.
Don't work that way.
I am very far from being an expert and I have stated before, close is good enough.
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I will try my best, boss. And a quote from one of my favorite movies.. I sure hope I don't let him down
Very interesting on the paints because I have like LP 14 and LP 12 that come from different arsenals. One is from Maizura Arsenal and the other Kure Arsenal and lp 15 from Yokosuka Arsenal all different grays
Deleted member 11187
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Rob, if I told those were naval ship arsenals, you wouldn't be too upset?
Have you tried them yet?
I think they will be too dark.
I believe, if this places these the way I collected and posted them the greens should be first?
These I believe when I saved these, they were part of a collection of nearest colors being gathered for a pdf from Nick's page
Aviation of Japan web site.
You wanted to go with the all grey color scheme?
Recent research from the Orient and it seems to be gaining the greatest acceptance is the Grey on the Zero was a color J3. A color not unlike
RLM O2. How about that? An ever closer modern color is Hemp/Lizard Grey. A standard color in the British range of camouflage colors.
The Humbrol mix above is wrong, I never did find the right colors to put to that right.
The Model Master 'Springer' mix is
20X 1792 SAC Bomber Tan
11X 1768 White
0.9 parts 1734 Green Zinc Chromate.
The bottom chart is a gradient of colors as the paint aged under different conditions.
The days I remember of German aircraft being two shades of green and the Zero being white, then the accepted US Navy equivalent of Light Gull Gray and a yellowish Amber are kinda fading.
But, then again, close enough is good. We build for us and my favorite, if it looks right, it is right.
Let me know what you think, eh?
I am open to more learning and constructive feedback. We are all here for the benefit of learning this art form and to advance.
Have you tried them yet?
I think they will be too dark.
I believe, if this places these the way I collected and posted them the greens should be first?
These I believe when I saved these, they were part of a collection of nearest colors being gathered for a pdf from Nick's page
Aviation of Japan web site.
You wanted to go with the all grey color scheme?
Recent research from the Orient and it seems to be gaining the greatest acceptance is the Grey on the Zero was a color J3. A color not unlike
RLM O2. How about that? An ever closer modern color is Hemp/Lizard Grey. A standard color in the British range of camouflage colors.
The Humbrol mix above is wrong, I never did find the right colors to put to that right.
The Model Master 'Springer' mix is
20X 1792 SAC Bomber Tan
11X 1768 White
0.9 parts 1734 Green Zinc Chromate.
The bottom chart is a gradient of colors as the paint aged under different conditions.
The days I remember of German aircraft being two shades of green and the Zero being white, then the accepted US Navy equivalent of Light Gull Gray and a yellowish Amber are kinda fading.
But, then again, close enough is good. We build for us and my favorite, if it looks right, it is right.
Let me know what you think, eh?
I am open to more learning and constructive feedback. We are all here for the benefit of learning this art form and to advance.
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Jakko
Well-Known Member
AFAIK, those date from when they were still being properly painted at the factory, and probably also touched up well when necessary when in service. Unless there are photos to prove otherwise, I think I wouldn't put any chipping on an aircraft involved in the Pearl Harbor attack.
Deleted member 11187
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Very little of the movies and personal photographs ever left the Pearl Harbor carriers.
The few black and white photos we see and the short videos are all that is left of the attack on December 7, 1941.
Most of the rest, went down with the carriers by the end of '42.
The original 60+ of the Model 11 was a land based aircraft, that started the mystic of the Zero. They had no tail hooks and no folding wingtips.
All of the fighter aircraft of the Pearl Harbor raid were Model 21's. I'm sure all broke in and at the peak operational when they took off.
When they left that morning, they all were some of the most experienced naval aviators in the world.
Some where floating around.
You see what I did there?
Is the display that was put on by a group of IPMS modelers of all of the aircraft of, I believe the first wave. All in 1/72. It was the center piece to one of the National Conventions and commemorated one of the anniversaries.
50th I believe.
Complete as the history and available information would allow.
It's quite the work.
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Naval paint. I'm not upset at all. Not one little bit. It is very interesting what you guys are saying about the paint and the ships and times and whatnot. It's all really very interesting. But to tell you the truth? I wouldn't know a Pearl Harbor plane from a plane on Guadalcanal. I don't know the difference from the two manufacturers other than Maybe exhaust placement. And yes, the Grays I quoted from the arsenals are too dark. A good gray I think for the underside of Japanese planes is Sky Gray xf19. The way I paint at this present time? That's pretty close. Yes that color looks really close. Sold. Maybe in a couple years I'll get into the art of the exact copy but I am not that good yet. At this stage in my modeling attempts if it looks good to me and almost like the real thing that's pretty good in my book. Besides, my dog doesn't know the difference between a land-based aircraft and a ship-based aircraft and my wife might glance at it once and say that looks nice. I'm just having fun building models and painting them to where I think they look good. Maybe down the road when I get a lot better I can start building close to Historic realism
blakeh1
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I'm mostly interested in the chit chat and learning something new as I find it all fascinating
But yes, in the end probably 99% of people who see your model outside forums like this won't be able to tell the differences either.
And to be honest, there are so many variables to color anyway that getting that exact match to a fresh off the line painted color is not always the best way to go. Once you factor in how colors change with scale, weathering/fading where the paint was made, how the lighting effects the picture of your model, how the lighting effects the subject you are copying. the white balance of the camera, the white balance of your monitor, etc... in the ballpark is good enough
Deleted member 11187
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@Rob @Tommergun @blakeh1
I couldn't agree more.
It was really all for everyone's benefit and I apologize Rob for the high seas highjack here.
You build for you. No one else
Most people when you show them, don't have the foggiest idea what they are looking at.
And by the time you throw some weathering at the bioitch, the whole shade and tone changes.
My favorite 'if it looks right, it is'.
For what it's worth?
I couldn't agree more.
It was really all for everyone's benefit and I apologize Rob for the high seas highjack here.
You build for you. No one else
Most people when you show them, don't have the foggiest idea what they are looking at.
And by the time you throw some weathering at the bioitch, the whole shade and tone changes.
My favorite 'if it looks right, it is'.
For what it's worth?
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Haha, I step into colour doo-doo all the time!
As mentioned above, the chit-chat can be interesting, but the reality is the paint bottles sitting on my bench, and what I manage to get on to the model.
I think of it as incremental learning... maybe next time I'll adjust a bit one way or another, or not.
As mentioned above, the chit-chat can be interesting, but the reality is the paint bottles sitting on my bench, and what I manage to get on to the model.
I think of it as incremental learning... maybe next time I'll adjust a bit one way or another, or not.
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No need to apologize. That's why I'm on this forum. To learn. How do you do this? Why do you do that? What colors did you use to get that? Now to me? I look at the Japanese zero and the ones that invaded Pearl Harbor you know the gray color the black cowl? Those to me are beautiful airplanes and they just look good. Just like the P-51. It just looks good. And you know just by looking at it that it flies just as good. Now if anyone here flies radio control you'll know what I'm talking about. That Japanese zero had a flat bottom wing which is very stable and if you have a wide wing trying to get that thing to land sometimes is almost impossible. You almost have to force it onto the runway because it just wants to float in ground effect. Now the P-51 wing? Flying radio control it was tricky. If your CG wasn't just right, it was a damn handful. You let it get too slow and tried maneuvers? It will get all snap happy Pappy and bury itself in the ground. But as usual I got off track and lost my train of thought. What was I talking about? Japanese zeros, okay. I could buy a Japanese zero model that is land-based and was only used for Kamikaze attacks and I'll take that model and give it a black cow l and spray it light gray and have it dive bombing the Arizona in a diorama and it wouldn't even dawn in my mind that that model plane never came close to water
Edbert
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This ^^^ is why you seldom see F-104s as RC planes.
I never built one, but I've been tempted a thousand times. One of my best buddies is very active, and I did get to fly his a few times, he had another override controller in case I screwed up. But I drove competition RC cars for many years, so I was decent with the controller and not confused when the thing is coming towards you
I did step aside and let him land, as with flying RL, landings are the hardest part.I did attend many of their club meets, and I was a judge in several contests when it came to paintjobs. I cannot judge their builds but I know a little about painting planes. A great hobby I've stayed away from because I know I'd dump 5 figures in no time.
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That's probably why I got into modeling. I just loved building radio control airplanes. You got to realize I was doing that back in the late '80s and the '90s. There was no such thing as ARF's. Almost ready to fly. No sir. First thing you needed was something flat and level that you could stick pins in. I used a cut down door. You taped your plans to the door and wax paper on top so the glue don't stick and you would lay out your balsa wood and hold it down with pins. Most major parts were pre-cut but there was an awful lot of wood that you had to have a miter jig and razor saw two or three different types of glue and different types of epoxy and it took months to build a plane. Then you would sand and shape and sand some more. And during all that you are making sure your engine fits in and the exhaust whichever type you choose fits in and all your servos and wiring and gas tank have to be perfect. With all the tips and tricks you learn along the way. And then after it's all sanded and sitting there looking great you still have to cover it with monocoat. Some guys were good at that and there was some guys that Holy gee whiz, are you sure that's airworthy? I like to think I was pretty good at it but I have to admit the way the machines do the wings now and the body they come out looking Sharp. And electric wasn't around. And then electric came out along with carbon fiber and planes got really light and the pilots didn't really want to fly when it was windy. And they can only fly for like 5 minutes. What a bunch of crap. Stick a big nitro engine on a plane that's built good and beefy and the wind becomes your friend and boy is it fun.
