Vallejo "coverage"

[Chris18692]

Hey all,

I've just gotten back into modeling and picked up a set of Vallejo paints. I'm having little trouble with some colors that the only way I can describe it is that they're not getting good coverage when being applied with a brush. I've had quite a few years experience brush painting acrylics so my first thought was they're not getting fully mixed up so I've already tried all that I can think of which includes...

Extra shaking/mixing. I literally timed and shook the bottles hitting them on the palm of my other hand for 5+minutes - same result

Over a basecoat, I tried them on a primed surface and even a un-primed surface with basically the same results.

More shaking/mixing - same

Even more shaking/mixing - my arms are like jello at this point

I'm rather stumped on what to do, it's only certain colors. Reading the threads about airbrushing the Model Colors I've seen where the pigments are different and some colors are thinner than others. The colors such as White Grey and Flat Yellow as examples both seem really thin and have this coverage problem but then the metal colors like Silver and Gold are almost as thick as a gel but have the same "coverage" problem as the thin paints. ??? The best I've been able to get with them is to keep applying several really heavy coats which leaves the finish looking clumpy. Then I switch from White-Grey to Medium Sea-Grey and it brushes on beautifully, among most the other colors.
So is there a secret to getting these to cover better when brushed on? or is the secret to use a different brand for these troublesome colors? :-\ I'm not against using a different brand but I'd prefer to stay in the acrylic family if at all possible.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

Can't say as I have ever had a problem with them covering. and I have probably been using Vallejo for 7-8 yrs.. As per any acrylic, if the surface isn't clean from dust and oils the paint can bead up.

Generally I thin the paint down even more than what is in the bottle, as I find it a little thick...but then that just makes the paint go farther.

Vallejo Model color is designed to be brush painted, and some colors are thicker than others, simply because of the fact that it sometimes takes more pigment in certain colors to actually make it. So ones like white and grey aren't going to have as much pigment in them to achieve the color.

 

[Chris18692]

I too haven't really seen acrylic behave this way, only when it's been sitting for a long time and has separated a bit but then still only needs a good stirring to bring it back. I even popped the tops off the bottles and used a stirrer to make sure there wasn't a clump of paint down in the bottom of the bottles. I made a little comparison pic to show what I'm talking about as it's kinda hard to describe on a piece of scrap plastic.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

Yeah, the metallics in the Model Color line are notoriously thick....that is no surprise.

And the whites being thin is no surprise really, like I said, it takes alot less pigment to create the white then it does to create even that grey, or especially that silver.


All I can tell you is don't try to cover it all in one pass. Multiple thin layers is the name of the game.

If you get a chance, try out the metallics in the Vallejo Air range....yes they are supposed to be pre-thinned for airbrushing, but they can be brush painted as well....very nice colors.

 

[huntr]

All I can tell you is don't try to cover it all in one pass. Multiple thin layers is the name of the game.

I am no expert at painting.. far far from it.. but...

since ive been back into modeling the last year or so.. I have found that with any brand of acrylic I have used be it brush or airbrush painting.. "Multiple thin layers" is giving me the greatest degree of success whatever the color may be

 

[Chris18692]

Thanks so much for the input. My main concern was that I had a bad batch or a bad bottle but it seems this the normal behavior for these so I'll just adapt to it.

I will most likely be trying out more of the model air colors. I just bought a AB/Comp along with the 16 base color Model Air set so it's been a lot of experimenting and trial and error but hey that's why I got the BIG jug of Super Clean ;D

 

[m1ks]

I bought a bottle of Vallejo model colour in Ivory a while ago and have tried both airbrushing and brush painting with it, It was crap, (I truly cannot be nice about it), only got this as it was the first brand in ivory I saw and frankly find it too stark a white to be really ivory anyway.
I recently, (last night), tried airbrushing it with my newly acquired Iwata thinking it may make a difference, no, it was crap, still.
For all the raving people do about Vallejo, especially when compared with Tamiya I expected it to be excellent.
I even find Tamiyas paint brush better than this with a drop of IPA keeping it from drying too quickly and Tamiya are notorious for being rubbish to brush.
I may try a bottle of the model air which is, as I understand, pre-thinned and designed for airbrushing but certainly the model colour range is not one i'll be using anymore of.
Frankly for brush painting I don't believe you can beat Enamels, (I use Humbrol).

For metallic acrylics, the best i've yet seen in brushability and for fine-ness of metallic pigment are Citadel, (Games Workshop)
Mithril silver = Aluminium
Chainmail = Steel
Boltgun metal = Gunmetal
Shining gold = Copper
Burnished gold = Gold
The pigment is really fine and nothing like as obvious as Tamiyas basic metallics, (I like the Titanium metallics from tamiya though)

They brush excellently and can be thinned with water, (also the pots have a nifty little indent in the lid for using as a palette)
They airbrush nicely too when thinned with Tamiya thinner, X20A

 

[Chris18692]

For metallic acrylics, the best i've yet seen in brushability and for fine-ness of metallic pigment are Citadel, (Games Workshop)
Mithril silver = Aluminium
Chainmail = Steel
Boltgun metal = Gunmetal
Shining gold = Copper
Burnished gold = Gold
The pigment is really fine and nothing like as obvious as Tamiyas basic metallics, (I like the Titanium metallics from tamiya though)

They brush excellently and can be thinned with water, (also the pots have a nifty little indent in the lid for using as a palette)
They airbrush nicely too when thinned with Tamiya thinner, X20A

This just saved me a lot of time and money. I was about to start hunting a line of metallics that had a finer more realistic metal colors. I did order some Tamiya acrylics to try out so I'll see how I like them towards the end of the week.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

Frankly the metallic colors in the Vallejo Air line are better, they actually have aluminum powder added to them to give them that metallic look, and lots of variety for colors as well.

And while they are Vallejo Air...they can be brush painted as well very nicely.

m1ks.....dunno what to say, I have been using Vallejo for 7 or 8 years, and have never had a problem thinning the Model Color to airbrush or brush on. I have used everything under the sun, and find nothing better out there. Just seems you had a bad experience and not indicative to the brand of paint. It is possible you got a bad bottle, but for the most part Vallejo Model Color brush paints circles around most brands. And while I haven't delved into the meat of the Air line, the few I have used work beautifully.

 

[Chris S]

Gotta agree with Scott here , I use them myself both in the AB and for detail brush painting and never really had a problem . I do prefer Tamiya or Humbrol for spraying ,but any time I use Vallejo I find them very good ,I've even thinned them with Future/ Klear and sprayed them with great results

Chris.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

Gotta agree with Scott here , I use them myself both in the AB and for detail brush painting and never really had a problem . I do prefer Tamiya or Humbrol for spraying ,but any time I use Vallejo I find them very good ,I've even thinned them with Future/ Klear and sprayed them with great results

Chris.

One of the guys here in our local club thins the Model Color with Future as well and swears by it...haven't tried it myself. When I told someone about it they were all like...well that is great if you want it to be gloss....but what if you want it a Matt color.

Well duh...do an over spray of Matt Varnish

 

[Chris S]

Yeah ..there is that I suppose ,but I find if you do want a gloss finish ,the future/Klear is very good ,it seems to help when buffing up the paint too ,brings up a nice shine ,Thats how the Red nose on my P-47 was done . But it does thin out well with the polish and sprays great too ,I think it helps to prevent the drying on the needle too .

Chris.

 

[JMac]

I've been using the Vallejo Model Color line for about a year now, and some of the Model Air paints a little less. I found that using them requires a bit of a learning curve, getting the thinning right at first took a little bit of trial and error on my part. But I love them, for me they are a great paint. I always thin the model color for brush painting and air brushing (I use an Iwata CR and Badger Velocity mainly) often brush painting takes four or five coats, but the coats dry very fast ( I tend to use Kens tip of using a hair dryer on low to accelerate the drying time). I've recently started to use the Model Air paints for brush painting in addition to airbrushing. I find they cover really nicely, again with mulpitle coats. Tamiya paints are good also (that and Model Master were my primary paints before switching to the Vallejo paints) - but I've had to thin them for brush painting and airbrush work also.

Advice is good, but more over experiment with the paints until you find one that works for you. There are many brands of paint and many modelers that will say that brand "x" is crappy and brand "y" is the best paint ever. Try them out, and decide which you like.

Good Luck

 

[fumblethumbs]

Oooooo, this is great information!! I just bought a set of model colour a couple weeks ago. I haven't had any probs brushing it so far but did notice different viscosities of various colours. Scott has provided an explanation for that. Once thinned though, it worked great. I'll defo try the future! Thanks. I've never tried the Citadel, but word on the street (at the local gaming club) is that they are excellent paints. JMac's right, experiment!!

 

[Chris18692]

That is something I've noticed on almost every youtube video about modeling I've seen is a variety of paint brands sitting in the background on all their workbench's. I really don't see mine being any different eventually, just takes time. I appreciate all the input from everyone

 

[sunsanvil]

I've been quite a advocate of Vallejo since pickup them up many years ago, at first principally for their solvent-free formula, but quickly discovered they brush painted much better than any other acrylic I tried....when thinned of course (out of the bottle they are almost gel like). For both brush and airbrush I would thin them with Vallejo's own thinner medium. Since I tend to airbrush more than paint brush, I started buying ModelAir and although pre-thinned for airbrushing, they brush paint very well as well (think about it: you have to thin ModelColor with something, anything, anyway). Might be a touch thinner than you are used to for brush painting but it skins over so freaking fast that you can do a thin coat on, say, a 1/35 figure and by the time you are done the place you started will be dry enough to go over again so you can get 2-3 or however many THIN coats you want in one setting.

Getting back to the OP for a second, yes different pigments will have different coverage. Several thin coats is good advice for any paint, even ones you can otherwise get opaque in one pass, but like I said it doesnt mean you have to do it in several sittings. Even particularly "weak" colors like the cadmium-free yellows of the ModelAir (which require a white base even) can be given several fine coats in one sitting (if what I'm painting is really small I just hit it with air from the airbrush till it skins over then do another pass).

 

[Lincoln Wright]

It is possible you've scored a dud bottle - I have a handful. They just don't seem to have been mixed properly at the factory or the paint and carrier have separated to the point that even a young and an old priest couldnt magic them back together.

One good thing out of it is that the duds end up being magical glaze paints with paranormal properties. Flats become glosses and can feather all in one application, that kind of thing. I really lucked out and scored a Cavalry Red dud and use it a great deal for painting in replaced parts on Ma.K models. Just the right odd combination of translucence and weird glossy finish.