Trouble with panel liner/enamel thinner

the Baron

Ich bin ja, Herr, in Deiner Macht
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
1,452
Yeah, the seal coat helps. I use Future, and I use washes of water-based acrylics, and of oils and mineral spirits. I've never had any issue with the wash attacking the seal coat.

I also use pastel chalks, a cheap pack of chalk sticks I got at an art supply shop. I don't usually buy a product when I can make it myself.

I brush those on over my matte coat, and adjust as necessary, when the varnish knocks the color back a little. I also mix them with water and dishwashing liquid as others have described, to make a sludge. I like to use this to depict caked mud on an AFV or a MaK suit.
 

the Baron

Ich bin ja, Herr, in Deiner Macht
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
1,452
No I was not. I am pretty casual.
A primer will definitely help your color coats adhere, especially the first coats you lay down, and especially if you use acrylics.

Enamels and lacquers are hot enough that they can adhere to unprimed surfaces (though perhaps not as well as primed surfaces). Acrylics, generally, and especially water-based acrylics, don't bond to surfaces as well. So it's a good idea to use one, if you use acrylics for your color coats.

I like Tamiya's Fine Surface Primer, but I also use automotive primers and Rustoleum. Tamiya's primer is very finely-grained, while Rustoleum's and the automotive primers I've used are a little more coarsely-grained by comparison. But they all work well.

The only complaint I have with Rustoleum and the other brands is that I have gotten bad cans, whose vents clogged up-the hole in the top where the nozzle inserts. That left me with half a can of paint in the can, that I could not get out. That has never happened to me with Tamiya. And for a small can, it goes a long way.

I'm sure others will have their preferences, too, both regarding priming, and which primer to use. What I have written, is from my own experience. Your mileage may vary.
 

Jim62

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2020
Messages
343
You are quite welcome. I have watched a few of that guys videos they are pretty good.
 

ohbejuan

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
62
A primer will definitely help your color coats adhere, especially the first coats you lay down, and especially if you use acrylics.

Enamels and lacquers are hot enough that they can adhere to unprimed surfaces (though perhaps not as well as primed surfaces). Acrylics, generally, and especially water-based acrylics, don't bond to surfaces as well. So it's a good idea to use one, if you use acrylics for your color coats.

I like Tamiya's Fine Surface Primer, but I also use automotive primers and Rustoleum. Tamiya's primer is very finely-grained, while Rustoleum's and the automotive primers I've used are a little more coarsely-grained by comparison. But they all work well.

The only complaint I have with Rustoleum and the other brands is that I have gotten bad cans, whose vents clogged up-the hole in the top where the nozzle inserts. That left me with half a can of paint in the can, that I could not get out. That has never happened to me with Tamiya. And for a small can, it goes a long way.

I'm sure others will have their preferences, too, both regarding priming, and which primer to use. What I have written, is from my own experience. Your mileage may vary.
I wil look into this. With the exception of spray sealants, I do everything by brush. but I may try this out. One limitation is no dedicated work space. When I spray the sealant I do it outside. I suppose I could do this outside as well.
 

the Baron

Ich bin ja, Herr, in Deiner Macht
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
1,452
my experience says Tamiya paints and washes only work properly with Tamiya thinners...
something in the science....
Yes, same here, specifically regarding the paints-I haven't used any commercially-prepared washes, Tamiya's or anyone else's.

I undertook a hero's journey with Tamiya paints, to get where I am today with them. When I started casting and painting toy soldiers back in the 90s, I bought paints as they were available, and for specific colors. I didn't mix any. So I wound up with a good collection of Tamiya acrylics in my Farbkastl. And I applied them by hand, albeit over a primer. I had the problems many report, especially that applying a second coat would lift off the first coat.

Then I got back into scale modeling, too. I used rattlecans for applying main color coats, but still used Tamiya's acrylics, applied by hand. I got myself an airbrush and started teaching myself to use it. And I read on some forum, that Tamiya's paints are formulated for airbrushing and so, are intended to be thinned for use. I don't know if that's the company's official position, but it made sense to me, given my experience with the paints.

So then I experimented with different thinners, more because Tamiya's thinner struck me as expensive for the small volume, and my Dutchy senses wouldn't let me spend so much, if there were cheaper alternatives. I tried water, because hey, "Acrylic means water-based!", right? (I learned that no, it doesn't). Still got the clumping, the paint lifting off. Then I tried isopropyl, because hey, Tamiya's acrylics are alcohol-based, right? Well, alcohols comprise a range of organic compounds, and I think Tamiya's acrylics use some other alcohol as a base. Isopropyl didn't work for me as a thinner for Tamiya acrylics. I still got clumping, and paint lifting. Though, it works very well to clean the brushes.

So I broke down, bought a bottle of Tamiya's proprietary thinner, and tried it. Immediately, the problems with hand-brushing went away. Airbrushing it became simple and consistent, too. I've gotten to the point where, with the paint properly thinned, I can lay down a coat on a piece, as thin as if I had airbrushed it.

The only drawback for me, is that I like to use a wet palette for my acrylics, and I can't do this with Tamiya's acrylics. So for hand-brushing, I use a small jar of the thinner. I'll either dip the brush in the jar, then touch it to the inside of the jar lid to pick up the paint, swirl it gently, then apply it to the piece. Or I pick up the color, then dip the brush in the thinner. Either way has worked well for me.

I don't use Tamiya's paints exclusively; I have other acrylics, such as water-based Andrea, Vallejo, Lifecolor, and craft-store brands. And I've got enamels, lacquers, and oils. But having solved the Riddle of Tamiya, I didn't have to struggle on with them or discard them.

And when someone posts, "You can't paint Tamiya acrylics by hand", I can offer my own experience to explain how it can work.
 

golgotha

New Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2013
Messages
17
As a suggestion with regard to Enamel Thinners, I have always used Humbrol Thinners as it does not stink to high heaven, is gentle and I have never found an issue with it. It is quite expensive but I would never use it for cleaning brushes as cheaper white spirit works for that.
Mig and AK odourless is good but when I last bought some it made the Humbrol made Humbrol look cheap.

John
 

golgotha

New Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2013
Messages
17
Yes, same here, specifically regarding the paints-I haven't used any commercially-prepared washes, Tamiya's or anyone else's.

I undertook a hero's journey with Tamiya paints, to get where I am today with them. When I started casting and painting toy soldiers back in the 90s, I bought paints as they were available, and for specific colors. I didn't mix any. So I wound up with a good collection of Tamiya acrylics in my Farbkastl. And I applied them by hand, albeit over a primer. I had the problems many report, especially that applying a second coat would lift off the first coat.

Then I got back into scale modeling, too. I used rattlecans for applying main color coats, but still used Tamiya's acrylics, applied by hand. I got myself an airbrush and started teaching myself to use it. And I read on some forum, that Tamiya's paints are formulated for airbrushing and so, are intended to be thinned for use. I don't know if that's the company's official position, but it made sense to me, given my experience with the paints.

So then I experimented with different thinners, more because Tamiya's thinner struck me as expensive for the small volume, and my Dutchy senses wouldn't let me spend so much, if there were cheaper alternatives. I tried water, because hey, "Acrylic means water-based!", right? (I learned that no, it doesn't). Still got the clumping, the paint lifting off. Then I tried isopropyl, because hey, Tamiya's acrylics are alcohol-based, right? Well, alcohols comprise a range of organic compounds, and I think Tamiya's acrylics use some other alcohol as a base. Isopropyl didn't work for me as a thinner for Tamiya acrylics. I still got clumping, and paint lifting. Though, it works very well to clean the brushes.

So I broke down, bought a bottle of Tamiya's proprietary thinner, and tried it. Immediately, the problems with hand-brushing went away. Airbrushing it became simple and consistent, too. I've gotten to the point where, with the paint properly thinned, I can lay down a coat on a piece, as thin as if I had airbrushed it.

The only drawback for me, is that I like to use a wet palette for my acrylics, and I can't do this with Tamiya's acrylics. So for hand-brushing, I use a small jar of the thinner. I'll either dip the brush in the jar, then touch it to the inside of the jar lid to pick up the paint, swirl it gently, then apply it to the piece. Or I pick up the color, then dip the brush in the thinner. Either way has worked well for me.

I don't use Tamiya's paints exclusively; I have other acrylics, such as water-based Andrea, Vallejo, Lifecolor, and craft-store brands. And I've got enamels, lacquers, and oils. But having solved the Riddle of Tamiya, I didn't have to struggle on with them or discard them.

And when someone posts, "You can't paint Tamiya acrylics by hand", I can offer my own experience to explain how it can work.
Tamiya Acrylics are actually a Laquer based Acrylic, which is why many of use use Mr Color self leveling thinner.
Vallejo and others are water based, if using water to thin follow their instructions and use distilled water for great results.

Brush painting Tamiya Acrylics was a chore until I saw a advert for their retarder and boy that cured my brushing headaches.
 

stevethefish

My name's actually not Steve
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
193
I missed this discussion last year until it was just bumped. I can concur about the lacquer-based acrylic. I have no idea the chemistry to this, but I know that both Tamiya and Mr. Hobby acrylics are compatible with each other, and can be thinned with either acrylic thinner or lacquer thinner for airbrushing. These are incompatible with Testors Model Master Acryls and cannot be mixed. However, Tamiya's acrylic thinner works fine for these Model Master paints. Just not lacquer thinner.

I saw a YT video by Mig in which he said that Mig and Vallejo acrylics are different than Tamiya, and must be airbrushed differently. I've never really used Vallejo paints before, but it seems that they are rather finicky. I've heard of it lifting up when masking is removed.
 

Marktastrophe

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2021
Messages
298
I missed this discussion last year until it was just bumped. I can concur about the lacquer-based acrylic. I have no idea the chemistry to this, but I know that both Tamiya and Mr. Hobby acrylics are compatible with each other, and can be thinned with either acrylic thinner or lacquer thinner for airbrushing. These are incompatible with Testors Model Master Acryls and cannot be mixed. However, Tamiya's acrylic thinner works fine for these Model Master paints. Just not lacquer thinner.

I saw a YT video by Mig in which he said that Mig and Vallejo acrylics are different than Tamiya, and must be airbrushed differently. I've never really used Vallejo paints before, but it seems that they are rather finicky. I've heard of it lifting up when masking is removed.
ANYONE please correct me if I'm wrong. But the characteristic shared by all acrylics is that they cure as a film, and water based ones like Vallejo don't adhere to plastic as well as a solvent based paint will. This does make masking Vallejo tricky, and makes things like masking fluid work not well, as it will continue to peel up past where you've masked. Where as a chipping fluid from Mig or Vallejo requires saturating the acrylic top layer with water to cause a reaction to the fluid underneath and makes a controlled peel lol.

That being said, to my knowledge, the only lacquer thinner that should be used with Tamiya Acrylics is Tamiya Lacquer Thinner (Pale yellow cap) as that causes a specific reaction with the Tamiya acrylics solvent, and actually turns the paint into a lacquer. I've been told by my LHS owner that using Tamiya Lacquer Thinner with Mr. Color lacquers works fine, but the paint may not be shelf stable.

I have thinned Tamiya acrylics with distilled water and 91% rubbing alcohol with good success as an FYI as well.
 

ohbejuan

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
62
ANYONE please correct me if I'm wrong. But the characteristic shared by all acrylics is that they cure as a film, and water based ones like Vallejo don't adhere to plastic as well as a solvent based paint will. This does make masking Vallejo tricky, and makes things like masking fluid work not well, as it will continue to peel up past where you've masked. Where as a chipping fluid from Mig or Vallejo requires saturating the acrylic top layer with water to cause a reaction to the fluid underneath and makes a controlled peel lol.

That being said, to my knowledge, the only lacquer thinner that should be used with Tamiya Acrylics is Tamiya Lacquer Thinner (Pale yellow cap) as that causes a specific reaction with the Tamiya acrylics solvent, and actually turns the paint into a lacquer. I've been told by my LHS owner that using Tamiya Lacquer Thinner with Mr. Color lacquers works fine, but the paint may not be shelf stable.

I have thinned Tamiya acrylics with distilled water and 91% rubbing alcohol with good success as an FYI as well.
I have solved the problem I discussed in the original post as follows. Originally, I was having trouble with the combo of Vallejo acrylic paint, Tamiya spray gloss coat, then Tamiya panel liner, cleaned up with testors enamel thinner. I solved this in a bunch of ways. 1) I started using primer more religiously 2) I stopped using Tamiya has my first/decal gloss coat and switched to pledge/future. 3) I use Mona Lisa odorless enamel thinner. I still use the panel liner and it works pretty well now.
 

urumomo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
3,457
" causes a specific reaction with the Tamiya acrylics solvent, and actually turns the paint into a lacquer "
No ,
the lacquer thinner is used as a reducer to modify dry time and allow the coating to level and bond to the substrate while wet .
The difference between lacquer acrylics and those that aren't is the formulation of the acrylic resin binder .
Here : https://coatings.specialchem.com/selection-guide/acrylic-resins-for-coatings

Some of the acrylic resins are compatible with alcohols and ketones ( isopropyl , ethanol etc / acetone , butanone (MEK) etc )
and others will have a negative reaction .
The AK 3rd Gen will turn to snot immediately with the addition of alcohol , Vallejo will coagulate with ketones .

The term lacquer thinner is like the word beer .
It doesn't tell you if it used lager or ale yeast , what type of grain was fermented , if hops was added ...
Brands like Kleen Strip , like you find at Home Depot , contain both alcohol and acetone along with a mix of other solvents .
The paint manufacturers concoct their own " lacquer thinners " to work best with the type of acrylic resin they are utilizing .
As you know , the MSDS will show you what is in them . Some will contain only alcohols and others will include ketones .
All chosen to provide the best overall performance of the resin at hand .
But , another formulation of reducer ( lacquer thinner ) may improve performance depending on the environment and substrate the coating is applied to .
It just has to be compatible with the acrylic resin being applied .

And , yeah , solvent based coatings have better adhesion on polystyrene since they attack the surface to create a better bond .
 
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