Question for 2012 contest

Biskup

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I must say I don't consider myself a good modeler. I know I have loads to learn and when I finish a kit I always know it could be done better and that I've made loads of mistakes.
Last year I joined the contest to have fun and build some kits that were in my stash waiting for their turn. It was a motivation to build something in short time. I also got one kit out of my comfort zone just to try something different. By some BIG luck I manage to win prize. Don't ask me why because I think there were better kits out there then those done by me. I was preparing for this year thinking which kits out of my stash to get for the contest, which I will have time to finish and just have fun building them.
But honestly now I'm having loads of thoughts if too take part in the contest. Why? Because if by any chance (which I doubt) I would win something I would feel really bad about it and I wouldn't enjoy it at all. Not even talking about having fun building them.
Sorry if I offended someone with this but that’s just how I fell. I know all this talk must be very hard on other members of the forum that took part last year and managed to win something.
Regards
Lukasz
 

ShutterAce

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You got no reason to feel bad Lukasz, you do some nice work. You deserved it as did everyone else. I for one am looking forward to your entry. :)
 

schweinhund227

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:eek:. Don't feel sorry! Just say it, express yourself! That's why we are having this Discussion..... Nothing wrong with expressing ourselves with "words" beside Glue and aftermarket parts.....

We are not adding Gas to the fire by keeping this tread going..... We are sitting around the "fire" discussing stuff between guys! What might come out of it, maybe be Nothing? Or something that we might all agree on? Who know? We haven't heard much from the Big Guns, yet! Let them Simmer! It's bound to come to a Boil eventually!

It is very interesting to read some of those comments and ideas.... We might be on something!
We have "neutral" positions, Pro & Anti Changes, a good mix! Keep it alive!
 

MilitaryAircraft101

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You pay the $5 to support the site. And anyway, even if you lose, you will have had quite an experience building and learning, so I think that it's all ok.
 

Fruit

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:eek:



...................


So are members allowed to donate prizes? (I'd love to donate a few fancy pre-printed papery kits to the pile :))
 

Eastrock

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If we watch the youtube video of Scott, I think he mention the $5 entry fee is to support our community and other stuffs...
 

fumblethumbs

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Yeah, as far as the $5.oo entrance fee goes, I feel that this is a token amount. Very affordable. If a person can afford to be in the hobby and buy kits and supplies, then a fiver to enter a fun contest is peanuts. Very, very reasonable. A token amount.

ShutterAce said:
f2k said:
To be very blunt, I’m really hesitant about paying to enter a contest where I know, before even having opened the box, that I have very little, and most likely no, chance of getting any of the ‘loot’. Why should I?

To support the community that's why. I think this illustrates the real issue here. It's really a phillisophical one when you break it down. I'm in for the fun and have no expectation of winning anything. I'm not that good and I know it. I just enjoy participating in the community and the contest is a huge event within the community. In my opinion, if all you ever do in life is participate in things that benefit yourself your in for a lonely ending.

Look, this isn't a sport or a game, it's an art contest. It involves modelling and photography with a little bit of writing. It's totally subjective. Everyone here knows you can hide a lot of mistakes with the right camera angle and lighting. I've had the opportunity to handle models in person that looked perfect in photo's but were way less than spectacular when seen in person. Surprisingly so, i might add.

I've been giving this a lot of thought and there are two things that I think would be beneficial. One would be the mandatory blog and the second would be to allow more photos. Say 3-5 mandatory shots and 10 -15 of your choice. It was hard to make some decisions last year during the voting and more detail photo's would have really helped. Some may say the blog is giving away secrets but I've never ran across a modeller who wouldn't share his or her techniques. I think it would make the comp even more fun.

Also, I can see splitting out the youth to there own division but other than that I really see no reason to divide things further. Even then I've seen some youth builds that are quite a bit better than most of mine and I've built hundreds of kits over the years.

There's really no right answer here. We all have different personalities, ideas, and motivations. these kinds of discussions have been going on forever. One thing is for sure. No matter how or if the rules change I will participate to participate. Not because I have any chance at all of winning anything but because I enjoy this community and the members of this community. What's a few bucks to "hang out" with some of the best people and modellers on the planet? :)


You make some very good points here Jim! A very well thought out, intelligent and eloquent description of your personal thoughts, feelings and opinions!

Jim is right, we all have different personalities, ideas and motivations. I would urge any member who wants to contribute toward this conversation but hasn't yet done so, to read the entire discussion which starts on page 5. After thoroughly reading and digesting the ENTIRE conversation, (very important to read it ALL) give some thought and reflection as to your personal feelings. You may wish to express your feelings here and contribute. The more members that voice an opinion (regardless of what it may be), the better! I would also urge folks who do chime in, to be perfectly honest and submit their true gut feelings on the topic. I'm quite certain the SMA staff would appreciate knowing how the membership TRULY feels about which direction the contest is going or not going.
 

scratchmod

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wow, you guys can't be serious right.

I think what Scott and the admin are doing with the contest is great, and to get sponsors to donate thousands of dollars worth of prizes is even better. It is not as easy as you think to first off run a forum but to set up a contest for YOU the modeler to enter, take part in, and most important have fun. A lot of thought and consideration goes into setting up a contest and keep it fair to all, but still be fun. Now because you didn't win a new AB you want them to change the rules. I'm sorry fellas, but maybe you need to sit back and just think of what you can do better to improve your skills as a modeler, instead of trying to force other who spend lots of time learning new skills and entering.
I think maybe at the next AMPS Nats I'll ask them to change the rules so I have a better chance at winning and advance to the Masters level........NOT. I will instead improve my skills and have fun entering.

Scott (ECH) and Iain I agree with you two for sure. Seems a lot of people have forgotten what the hobby is all about. No one here makes a living from building models. Yes we make a few dollars here and there, but we are still just normal guys who enjoy building models and some times enter contests to have FUN.

I would not be surprised if this thread gets locked, as with the ranting about cliques ( not click) and social clubs.

BTW. I won't be entering because I won't have time again this year to finish the model entered.

Cheers from the social club
 

fumblethumbs

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Great input here Rob!

Allow me to address your thoughts.

Yes. serious and genuine.

Yes Scott G and the staff do an incredible job!! No argument at all on that point. Fantastic job!!

I don't do contests so, no I didn't personally, and will never win an airbrush.

Does AMPS have different classes to enter Rob? Or is everyone of all skill levels lumped into the same class?

You say "Seems a lot of people have forgotten what the hobby is all about."
I couldn't say it better Rob! I agree 100% with you on that one!!

Why do you think the thread would be locked? I don't think civilized discussion and idea exchange is frowned upon here. Maybe i'm wrong but I don't think so.


It would be great if you would respond to the two questions I have posed to you Rob! Thanks.


Edit; Oh, and one more point Rob, as a matter of fact one of the first place winners in last years contest does make his living building models.
 

f2k

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scratchmod said:
wow, you guys can't be serious right.

Actually, I’m quite serious...

My wargaming example wasn’t conjured out of thin air – it’s a real-life example of a problem that nearly killed a club I frequented quite a few years ago.

Basically, a handful of members got to the point where they were so sick and tired of getting thrashed every time they showed up and played one of the old-timers that they threatened to leave the club. Was it childish? Perhaps... But in all honesty, I could sympathise with them.

You say that “a lot of thought and consideration goes into setting up a contest and keep it fair to all, but still be fun”. But the problem is that, apparently, some of the members (myself included, I’ll freely admit) feel that this contest isn’t really fair at all. And thus, it isn’t really that much fun either.
As stated before, you don’t want a NFL team to play against a high school team, right? But, in a sense, that’s what’s happening here. We have noobs butting heads with veterans and, honestly, is it any surprise if the noobs feel that that is a bit unfair?

Perhaps my statement about paying for the contest was a bit too much. If so, then I apologize. But look at it this way (just to play the Devil’s advocate): If I build a model as part of the competition I will have to pay for the privilege of getting soundly beaten by the veterans, all the while working under a stressing deadline that always seems to be way too close for comfort. If I don’t participate, then I get to build the model at my own pace with no down payment, no deadline, no competition, and no stress. No, I won’t have a chance at getting any of the loot then, but that doesn’t really matter, does it? Because I wouldn’t have gotten any of it anyway. And I’d still get as much feedback on my build as I would, had I participated in the contest. So why participate in the first place? It actually detracts from my enjoyment of the build...

Now, let me put these questions out there, for everyone to ponder and (hopefully) answer:

What do the veterans get out of competing in a contest where the majority of contestants are no threat to them?
Considering that they won’t stand a chance of winning, what are the noobs supposed to get out of the contest that they couldn’t have gotten out of this site in the first place?
What would be the harm in splitting the contest into categories for noobs and veterans?

Finally, let me just state, once again, that I’m not, in any way whatsoever, trying to detract from what’s being done here. In fact, I’m really happy about having competed in last year’s contest as that helped rekindle my love for scale model building.

What does scare me a bit though, is the thought that, as the contest hopefully grows in popularity, it will become known as a noob-hostile competition where the veterans get to win over the hapless noobs year after year. And yes, I’m speaking from experience here, having seen what happen to the aforementioned club when the split between the noobs and the veterans became too big. And I really don’t want to see that happen here...
 

scratchmod

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ok

Yes AMPS does have three main levels, and a masters. Unless you win BOS at a Nats then forget moving to that level. Even tho there are three entry levels, eventually the majority ends up in the advanced level. So, after three years of winning golds and BOS's you are stuck there and have to compete with all the advance people. Basically it's the same as the contest here. I am an AMPS cert judge and have my opinions on that judging system that I won't go into here.
Now look at the IPMS contest, just like the contest here. Everyone is competing at the same level but only three can win. When I do enter an IPMS comp I tried to do my very best with whatever model I want to enter. That means learning new techniques and looking at what I was weak in at the last show. Only then can I better my skills. Hell, I would love to compete against people like A. Wilder or Mig, even tho I know I don't stand a chance. It's the fun in entering and knowing that I competed against the best.

As for locking the thread, it is civil now but from reading all the comments I can see where this is going. Basically from what I have gathered, many of you want it to be easier to win that AB. Not many have mentioned that they are entering to support SMA, learn or improve their skills and most important have fun with the contest.
Now if the Admin makes the changes so it's easier for some to win that top prize.....what have you gained. Certainly not knowledge or sportsmanship....just a nice new AB.
I have a contest going on my forum that runs all year long with monthly winners who are then in a pool of winners, and from that pool three will win a prize. The members will be involved in the contest in that THEY have to write up questions for a winners interview so the members get to know each other. it's about having fun, enjoying the hobby and being involved. Not complaining because they didn't win an AB. No one except the mods and myself know what the prizes are so you are entering because it is fun and a bonus when you do win the big prize.

Would most of you enter the SMA contest not knowing the 1st place was a Badger AB ???? If that is your goal, to win that top of the line AB, then maybe you should try to improve your modelling skills so you can win it, instead of getting rid of the competition.

I can understand and partly agree with some of the suggestions made so far. yes some people do join forums just to enter a contest and win that big prize. Not fair to the regulars....but if their work is that good then it is a deserved win.

It is hard to make everyone happy when doing a contest so a middle ground has to be found.
 

scratchmod

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The one suggestion that would make sense would be to have a masters cat for previous winners, this way they can still enter the contest and have fun too. But to not let them enter at all because they built a great model the previous year is wrong. These winners will get tired and move on to another forum where they can pass on good modeling advice.

Like I said, I can agree on some of your opinions here, but basically it sounds like, sorry but, poor losers.

I had one experience about 15 years ago when I competed in a show in Europe and the one guy one 1,2 and 3rd place at this IPMS event.....from what I heard from other contestants this was the norm for a few years already. I didn't think, well he shouldn't be allowed to compete any more so we can win too. Instead I learned new skills, improved my skills in other areas and entered again the following year. I place 3rd the following year. It felt good because I took a 3rd against someone who had been racking in the trophies for years. This told me that I was getting better.
So isn't this little story familiar...... it's what the hobby is all about and not going for the big prize.

Ok I just spend a lot of time reading and commenting when I could have been at the bench trying new techniques or updating my site and forum.

I hope this all gets settled and you are all happy in the end. Enjoy the contest for those who do decide to enter and have fun. I am going to work on some models now because it's what I like to do to relax and not get stressed over threads like this one. No disrespect to any of you and your opinions.
 

Jeeves

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While I don't agree with locking the thread as I think people should have an avenue to express their opinions civilly...and this discussion has been civil- I also don't think the contest needs to be changed. There were loads of prizes ...and many given to those who didn't place. I came nowhere near placing...but still received a very nice prize throught Scott's drawings...they did a great job spreading the wealth.

I joined around the time the contest started through an invite by Erik...entered for fun and knowing I was supporting the website. I've known Ken for a good long while and, despite the fact he's a Red Sox fan, (;)) he's very generous and encouraging and as a winner...he has motivated me to improve my skills for next year. Yes the winners were really good, but that gives me no excuse to stay stagnant with my skills...I need to up my game if I want to better compete- and that's on me...not last years winners or the SMA staff!
 

fumblethumbs

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OK Rob. Thanks very much for the response!

I have carefully read through your last 2 posts twice. Admittedly, I am totally out of touch with how model contests are run and appreciate your explanations. What I gather from you, and please correct me if I am wrong, is once an entrant has prooven their skill via winning golds and BOS's (I'm assuming best of shows) then they are moved into a class of higher skill level competitors. I get that. Then, in the next sentence you say "Basically it's the same as the contest here". I don't get that. Your next point about it sounding like "poor losers" is well taken but, personally (and I can only speak for myself) is certainly not the case. As I said "I don't do contests" so, for me, it's not about making the contest easier to win. It's about suggesting some ways to improve the contest, making it fair for all and at the end of the day strengthening SMA! Also it has never been suggested that the best builders be banned from the contest. That was a conclusion that got jumped to by someone (don't know who...doesn't matter) that did not read the posts carefully and correctly. As for the thread being shut down...I really don't see the need. If as you suggest it deviates into something that is not civil, my suggestion would be to simply delete the offending post and not the entire thread. This is too valuable a discission and many people have contributed thoughtful and intellignt points. I strongly agree with your comment "It is hard to make everyone happy when doing a contest so a middle ground has to be found". Absolutely right Rob! That "middle ground" is exactly what we're searching for here! I sure do appreciate you taking the time to respond and supply some great information! Thanks Rob! Now get to the bench!!
 

fumblethumbs

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@Scott G and Staff,

Please don't feel obliged to address, or make a snap decision or ruling on this matter. I think some more thoughts and opinions may come forward. This conversation has come a long way and brought many points to light in a few days. It would be nice to see what a broader section of the membership thinks about this topic.
You Guys have built something great here! Keep up the good work!
 

f2k

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For me, it’s not about making it easier to win (though that might be a side effect), it’s about levelling the playing field so the we all have a fair shot at whatever price (be it a million dollars or just the bragging rights) that’s offered.

As for why I enter the competition... I don’t enter a competition in order to improve my skills. In fact, I’d say that competing is detrimental to learning new skills as the pressure of working under a tight deadline usually has me defaulting to the tried and true methods that I already master. A competition, in my opinion, is not the place to experiment...

But each to his own, of course...

The vibe I’m getting from this debate is that the “problem”, if we can even call it that, is that we have a disconnect as to what we’re looking for in the competition. Some of us want a level playing field and some of us want to be challenged as hard as possible.

Now, I do know that the plural of “anecdote” isn’t “truth” but please do hear me out...

A few years ago I tried to get back into wargaming via WarMachine. I played a few intro-games which all ended in my opponent going “now, this guy moves here, casts this spell on this guy, who now moves here and issues this order, which allows me to add xD6 to the damage of this model, who now charges your warcaster, thanks to the benefits offered by that guy, and... Ohhh, look... Your warcaster is dead. Thank you for the game”.

No, I wasn’t having much fun...

The problem, I eventually realized, was that the veterans thought that the only way to teach the noobs how to play was to hit them with every imaginable combo in the rules. But I wasn’t learning anything by having half my army wiped out by turn two and my warcaster dead by turn three... And worse than that, I was getting really disheartened by the never ending string of loses. So disheartened, in fact, that I left the game altogether and sold my models...

I think something similar is happening here. Some of us want to go slow and learn by competing with people of our own level and some of us feel that they only really learn when they’re challenged by competing against the best there is.

I honestly don’t know how to resolve this – after all, you can’t please everyone all the time. But I do think that it’s important to talk about it...

What I’m afraid of is that this competition will end up much as I felt about WarMachine back then. The noobs will feel so disheartened by the stiff competition that they’ll simply leave and seek out other forums and other competitions where they feel they have more of a chance.

Finally, let me just point out that I would feel the same had I been a veteran. If I have to compete, then I prefer to do so in a level playing field. Winning over noobs is just as unrewarding as getting thrashed by a veteran. Competition, in my opinion, is only really interesting when every participant has a roughly equal chance of getting away with the ’loot’...
 

scratchmod

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ok one last comment then I'll shut up :D

ft with the comment about all being in the same cat as the contest here. It is hard in AMPS to move to masters, so you stay in advanced. Lets say you have been in advanced for the past 5 or ten years right. The new guys moving up into that cat will be competing WITH you, not against as this is important. Generally the same as here everyone in the same category. OK maybe thee AMPS thing was not a good example but you get the picture.

Like I said, I don't totally disagree with everything. It's just from reading the comments, one gets the impression that it focuses on people complaining because they lost.

The one thing I forgot to mention, and why I'll be quiet after this. I know of a couple of the winners who entered for the first time and won. These are not the veterans some of you speak of, but just model builders like everyone here that has commented. Who's to say that they will take a first place again, not saying they just got lucky and are not that good, they are good that's why they one. As for the veteran who has one the past two years, he has also passed on his winnings to a fellow modeler. Last year I wanted to enter but other things came up and I didn't enter. I had told the staff that IF I did win the 1st place to pass it on to another member as I have enough AB's as is and only can use one at a time.

ok, got to run now, and maybe get bench time in as well. good luck to all
 

fumblethumbs

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OK Rob! I think I git it. Bottom line though...There are separate classes for differing skill levels. Ok. Thanks again Rob!
 

schweinhund227

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:eek:. I smell burnt Toast!

While sitting at the bench...

I kept hearing my IPad beeping every so often and decided to take a peek at my emails.... Wow this discussion is nearing the boiling point of water! Or what?

like it or not? We are a cross section of the modeling community! Some Awesome dudes here, and some, well lets face it, not there yet! I am one of later ones....

As a last year Winner (whiner to some) and the year before that as well... I sure don't need another AB.... But that doesn't stop me to believe the contest can become Even better than it is now!

I could very well try to shut up the underdogs..... But I am one to!

Nothing wrong with listening to what the people have to say! I just wish that high grade members and monitors alike.... Stop preaching! Stop reading Queue cards.... We know, SMA is Great.... because we, as a whole, are a great bunch.... we are not asking for the Moon! It sounds like some are trying to undermine the whole conversation! Nothing might come out of it in the long run but it is very good to pop a few Zits now and then.....

When the dust settles! Maybe we will all know each other better! and go from there.

Now for a little fun! About winning!

Songify This - Winning - a Song by Charlie Sheen
 
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