Question for 2012 contest

MilitaryAircraft101

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I agree, forget what I said before ::) I loved last year's competition and I was absolutely blown out of the water by the competition. But in the process, I used my first resin and PE aftermarket accessories, did my first airbrush camouflage, and learned alot about the F/A-18 Classic, and also the developement of early jet engines. So what we did last year didn't seem to offend anyone, and everyone was very sportsman-like about it, so I agree with Coraline. The only change would be one person not placing twice in the same cat. That seems fair :)
 

spud

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Yes I agree with that but end of the day we will have to wait and see what Scott and the admins come up with,
 

fumblethumbs

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Quaralane said:
I want to make a suggestion concerning the "previous/multiple winners" idea.
Rather than eliminate them from competing entirely, how about this for an idea?
A particular builder is only allowed to place ( i.e. 1st, 2nd, or 3rd) in one category.
In the event of a multiple category-winning builder, the prizes would go to the next highest vote-getters in the other categories.


Yep, I like it Q!! I think you've hit on a very nice compromise here. So, let me understand Q. If a builder takes 2nd in say armour, and aslo a 3rd in say aircraft, he/she will be awarded a prize (assuming there are some in 2012) for the armour placing but not for the aircraft placing? So then, bottom line, even though he/she is announced and treated as the 3rd place winner in AC, the 4th place entry would get the 3rd place prize. It's not nearly as complicated as I make it sound here and a great suggestion Q!! I think that is a fair solution for all.

Given that you are a very reasonable and congenial person Q, what do you think about the "minimum post count" or "minimum time in forum" idea?? Also, how do you feel about professionals (anyone who is paid for model building) taking part in the contest?
 

fumblethumbs

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As far as staffers entering the contest goes, I have absolutely no problem with it. Given that they are the ones that will tally the votes, which could be seen as a conflict of interest, I still have no concerns. Although I've never met any of the staff members personally, I know they are above this type of behaviour and I trust each and every one of them completely! Not an issue.
 

Eastrock

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I agree with Q, just an added suggestion to Multiple entries...

There's should be an over-all winner... for example If the modeler did win in an armor category but place 2nd or 3rd in another category... (your already a god-like modeler if you both place 1st) He or She must choose one AB and the other AB should be pass down the line... if that would be ok?
 

ShutterAce

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I agree with Coraline except for limiting the number of entries. The way it was done last year is the same way it's done in most places. If the model deserves the win it deserves the win period. Let the chips fall where they may.

This coming from the guy who took dead last in aircraft last year and still enjoyed it. ;)
 

Elm City Hobbies

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Coraline said:
Hi,
I'm a beginning modeler who managed to finished only two kits so far and I took part in last years contest with one of them. I didn't manage to win anything but hey that's life.

I'm still not sure if I will take part in this years contest and I don't want to offend any one with this but I'm just writing how this may look.

The idea of not allowing people who won something one year to participate next year in my opinion won't make the contest more fresh and live but it will certainly lower the bar and the quality of the contest. It can also be seen as a way of getting rid of competition so instead of trying to make a better kit and improving your skills you would only need to wait for your turn.
If one year I would place on 4-6 place and for the next one I would get 1-3 place I wouldn’t enjoy it that much. Because even if I would improve my skills and make much better kit a one that could participate with the 1-3 place kits from previous year I would think that the only reason I won is because those modelers didn't participate.

Not allowing staff to take part in contest makes sense only if they are the ones who decide on the winners but as the winner is chose by the members of the forum this doesn't make to much sense.

Another thing is the professional modelers. Wouldn’t it be great to take part in a contest and take good place among them? Wouldn’t you fell that you achieved something great? Well I certainly would and the all open category is the place to put your lives work in to a kit you’ve been working on for 2-3 years. At least in my opinion.

Setting a bar of a limit of posts wouldn’t allow participating modelers who are lurking thru this forum and only post when they finish something or think that their post would help someone. Or it can make a flood of post like “great”, “cool” just so the member would achieve a desired level of posts.

As for allowing a member to take only one place in certain category makes sense but why not on start allow people only to join with one kit per category? Because if they will join with more then you might have a situation where you will have kits on 4-5 place that should be on 2-3 because they are that good.

It’s just my 2 cents and my opinion in which I didn’t want to offend any one just state how this might look after the rules are implemented.
Cheers
Karolina

Couldn't have said it better myself.

No offense guys....but all this talk about not letting past winners enter, or limiting what they win, or only allowing them to enter if they have X amount of posts....just sounds like disgruntled, greedy modelers to me.

I get that it can be disheartening that the same people win all the time, but do you want to enter/be apart of a contest that limits who and who can't enter because they are just that much better than some others?

I enter the contest (when I can actually finish something) or any contest for that matter, to have fun, and see what other people have done. If I happen to win something, then it is just a bonus....I don't go into the contest with the expectations that I am going to win something, and disappointed when I don't.


Frankly I am a bit ashamed to see that some people would like to manipulate the rules just so they might get themselves bumped up a couple of notches and possibly win something.

I was under the impression that this was supposed to be fun and enjoyable....not a oneupmanship competition.

Frankly I would rather see the quality workmanship that we have seen in the past contest, rather than winning something.

Sorry if this steps out of bounds....but all these suggested rules to limit who can and can't enter because they are "Too Good" or don't have enough posts on the forum, is just silly IMHO.

If someone can build multiple kits, to the level that earns them a placing, in the time allowed, then I say they deserve it. Shouldn't be any different with the SMA contest, than it is at any other AMPS, IPMS or other contests.

I just want to say that this is my opinion only, and as an admin here in SMA bears no reflection of the policies of the SMA contest.
 

f2k

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On the subject of not letting past winners participate:

I’m sorta on the fence here.

On one hand I really don’t like the idea of eliminating people just because they’re better than me.

On the other hand, getting consistently beaten by the same handful of guys, year after year, is no fun for the rest of us. Why would I pour my heart and soul into a model when I know full well that I won’t have a chance at placing in any category?

One solution might be to move past winners into a “Master class” category and let the rest of us poor mortals compete in the regular category. Just a suggestion...


And talking of the next competition: when will the categories be publicised? I usually need to order all my stuff from England so I’d like a bit of advanced warning so I can get the kits home in time for the contest.


And talking of categories: do you take requests? I have a few ideas for something that might be used as a category or possibly a groupbuild for later this year...
 

Eastrock

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Hi F2k,

I think Scott posted the same categories here as before... but have not yet posted the added category if there will be...
 

Coraline

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Scott is absolutely right. He had the courage to right what some maybe most of us are thinking.
This contest is great as it is and trying to improve it may only ruin it.
Regards
Karolina
 

Quaralane

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As to the limiting prizes idea I set out, it's about spreading the wealth.

I don't like the idea of limiting the entrants by post count, because we had a LOT of new members join up simply BECAUSE of the contest.
I like seeing what all is out there.

Where I see a problem is the "all open" category, where you can literally put any build you've ever done against anything under the sun.

Personally, I say we should limit the contest purely to new entries. Started at the beginning of the contest. In the categories for the contest.

On limiting entries from a particular member: Every entry paid a fee to get in.
Doesn't seem fair to shut that down.

On staff competing:
If the staff was judging, I'd say no. But, since the contest is judged by all, I say let them compete.
 

schweinhund227

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fumblethumbs said:
Thinking out loud here. What about this idea? If a person has placed 1st, 2nd or 3rd in any category, in the previous years contest, they would not be eligible to place in the next years (or even next 2 years) contest(s). This could help to keep the contest fresh and exciting. Just thinking' out loud here.


I would be game to go that route if we were 'allowed' in other categories...than those we previously Placed in last year !

Which wouldn't be necessarily are "fORTé" i.e. my not entering "Armour" but maybe "Diorama" instead even though it may contain an Armour model in it !!! or completely off the left field ?

I was actually thinking not entering any models for 2012 for those very same reasons....as you seem to Allude to and give other members a chance at shining !!!

It is true that with Prizes like we have seen last Spring.... The Big SMA Contest is gonna attract a lot of attention ! which is WANTED and NEEDED for a site to expand and grow ! both in Quality and Memberships...

I understand you all to well ! and to support your idea; I will be entering something in 2012.... in a category that I am not known to be at ease with! I don't know what exactly as of yet ? but it won't be in Armour.... Just to challenge myself even more ! maybe I will learn something new ?

Thanks for expressing those feelings ! Nothing wrong with that ! in my book !
 

fumblethumbs

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Coraline said:
Scott is absolutely right. He had the courage to right what some maybe most of us are thinking.
This contest is great as it is and trying to improve it may only ruin it.
Regards
Karolina


You certainly are entitled to your opinion of things Karolina! I respect your opinion.


@ Scott (ECH): I would submit that all opinions are and should be welcomed here for discussion. Your opinion certainly isn't "out of bounds". On the contrary, your opinion offers some good points for consideration. I (and I can only speak for myself) certainly take no offense to your input!

To address your first point about these suggestions to improve the contest being about "disgruntled, greedy modellers"...well, at least in my case, not true at all. I'm sure it's not the case with others either. I absolutely knew, when I broached this subject that someone would say it was just sour grapes. Let me assure you Scott (since you were the person who brought it up) that it is not! I'm wanting to suggest some possibilities to IMHO improve future contests. Perhaps the majority of folks feel that the contest is fine and dandy the way it is presently. That's great. I feel it could use some new policies. The reason I suggest that entrants have a certain amount of posts, or time in at SMA, is simply to eliminate people who have contributed nothing to the forum from swooping in at the last minute to claim victory in the contest. I'm not OK with that. Again, some folks may be OK with that, and that's fine. Also, following Quaralanes suggestion a few posts back, no one would be excluded from entering the contest. If the same people place 1st, 2nd and 3rd in every category so be it. The change would come in the presentation of prizes not titles.

As far as feeling ashamed Scott...Not at all necessary. No one is trying to "manipulate the rules". Simply suggesting a few new policies that may or may not be beneficial to future contests and the overall health of the forum.

I'd be interested to know how you feel about professional model builders entering Scott? You bring up some good points and food for thought here Scott...I'd love to hear your opinion on that question (and everyone elses for that matter)!

Great dialogue Guys!!
 

Elm City Hobbies

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As to the limiting prizes idea I set out, it's about spreading the wealth.

I would say that the wealth was spread pretty nicely and fairly from the last contest.


On limiting entries from a particular member: Every entry paid a fee to get in.

I agree, and if said person builds more than one kit (say he builds an aircraft and a tank), and wins first in both categories, and maybe wins best of show.....doesn't he deserve his prizes for doing so? If he then chooses to let some of the prizes slide down to the next winning entry then fine, but it should be his choice what to do with the extra prizes and not have it taken away because he won something already.

Where I see a problem is the "all open" category, where you can literally put any build you've ever done against anything under the sun.

Personally, I say we should limit the contest purely to new entries. Started at the beginning of the contest. In the categories for the contest.

I sort of agree on this....I really think that the All Open came about because there were so many prizes offered from all the great sponsors. All Open was designed for those that had kits on the go, and didn't want to start something else in the meantime. However there is no way really to police this, really on an honor system as to whether the kit was "in progress" when the contest started or something that was completely finished. I suppose we could require a picture of the kit in progress with some sort of proof of the starting date, but where to you draw the line? Kit still in the building phase? I mean literally I could have a kit that just needs it's final flat coat and call it in progress when the contest starts. Not sure how this could be policed so that it was fair for everyone, and someone isn't entering a kit that was built and finished years ago.
 

Elm City Hobbies

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I have been in the middle of discussions about professional modelers before.

What constitutes a professional modeler? I built a couple of kits for a company in the US to show off their resin upgrades for said kits, and got paid for it, does that mean I am a professional modeler? I certainly don't feel that way.

On the topic of forum posts....you have 100 times the number of lurkers that you do people that participate on the forums. So just because they don't talk on the forums, ie: don't have many posts, they should not be allowed to enter? You can have (and I am sure there are) people on here that have been with SMA since the beginning, yet probably don't have more than 25 or so posts because they like to look at other people's work, but don't like to respond to the threads. They shouldn't be allowed to enter because they don't have many posts? Entry qualifications should be tied to how much you participate on the forums, that is getting into a form of minor discrimination if you go down that road.

I can tell you that people didn't join the website at the last minute to "clean up" because the site registration was shut down about a month before the end of the contest (I believe, Scott G can correct me on this).

Again, as I said above, if people pay their entry fee, start and complete multiple kits within the prescribed time of the contest, and win multiple times with their multiple entries, then I believe that they are "entitled" and "deserve" the prizes they receive for their entries. What they choose to do with their prizes afterwards is their choice. IF they want the extra prizes they won to go to another entrant, then they can and should contact Scott G to tell them that. If they just want to give the extra airbrush they won to some unsuspecting entrant because they want to be nice and brighten someone's day....then the more power to them, and if they want to keep all their winnings for themselves then that is their right as they were "CHOSEN BY THE ENTRANTS" as the winner and should receive said winnings.
 

spud

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After reading all of what scott has said im agreeing with him, If i win 2 ab not that i will i would like to have my prize but then again i would prob give one away because ild have no use for 2, but thats me if somone else wins more than two then he is entitled to keeping them.

just how i feal.
 

fumblethumbs

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Again Scott, some very good points! I agree with you on the post count thing. Probably not a good way to determine eligibility. You're right, some members here may not post much. Great point and duly noted. Still, something about joining SMA soley to enter the contest rubs me the wrong way...But that's my issue ;)

In my estimation professional means being skilled enough and savy enough to be paid for any given service. So, yes by my definition you are a professional. Agreed...Slippery slope!

Let me say this: It is an absolute privelidge to belong to SMA! This discussion could have, and on many, if not most model forums would have, degenerated into a name calling, nasty argument. Believe me, I thought long and hard on the consequences of posting such a radical idea as changing up the contest. I paused over the "POST" button for a while. Then, I thought to myself YES, the membership here at SMA can handle this! It's so refreshing to be able to voice an idea or opinion, no matter how volitile, and get thoughtful respectful responses. That's how great things happen. I mean, how many people thought Wilbur and Orville were crazy for having their ideas? Or JFK? Or Abe Lincoln? It's been almost 48 hours since this was brought up and not a nasty word written. Sure, some Guys have voiced some strong opinions but that shows passion and conviction. There are many, many model forums (and a lot of you guys can back me up) where a member would have been berated and flamed to the point of resignation over such a suggestion!
Whether SMA sees fit to use any of our suggestions or not doesn't matter a hill of beans to me. What IS important is that we are all free to voice ideas and opinions in a tolerant and respectful environment. That is what makes SMA so rare and special. I sincerely hope that this mutual respect we all share never goes away!

Spelling Edit...Here's another suggestion...How about a built in spell checker ;)
 

fumblethumbs

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Elm City Hobbies said:
As to the limiting prizes idea I set out, it's about spreading the wealth.

I would say that the wealth was spread pretty nicely and fairly from the last contest.


Absolutely right Scott! Q and I are thinking down the road. I mean, in 5 years the Madman or Chris S or TRM (or others of their calibre) are going to have 25 airbrushes! ;D Albeit well deserved and earned but still...See what I'm sayin'?
 

Bizarre

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What do you think about "alternative" prize variants if the person already won airbrushes from Badger before? F.e. a full set of AK-interactive products or a big set of Vallejo acrylics? Just a thought...
 

Elm City Hobbies

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fumblethumbs said:
Elm City Hobbies said:
As to the limiting prizes idea I set out, it's about spreading the wealth.

I would say that the wealth was spread pretty nicely and fairly from the last contest.


Absolutely right Scott! Q and I are thinking down the road. I mean, in 5 years the Madman or Chris S or TRM (or others of their calibre) are going to have 25 airbrushes! ;D Albeit well deserved and earned but still...See what I'm sayin'?

Sure, I get what you are saying, but I still believe that if they paid to enter, and won, then they should get their prize, and do with it as they please, as opposed to someone telling them that they won last year....you get your 1st place...but no prize. You could do it once, but then those people likely wouldn't be back the following year!

In my estimation professional means being skilled enough and savy enough to be paid for any given service. So, yes by my definition you are a professional. Agreed...Slippery slope!

LOL...all I did was build a couple Tamiya T-55 kits, one OOB to show off a set of resin road wheels, the other to show off a T-54 backdate set. No painting was required, just nice clean build with no visible glue marks. My payment, a couple of resin conversion kits/wheels of my choice. Wasn't really difficult (thanks to a superb kit to start with), something pretty much anyone could do, I was just lucky enough to be chosen.

Let me ask you this....if someone builds a model, takes pictures all the way through the building and painting process, and uses those pictures along with an article they wrote to be put in a magazine, they they would get paid for, does that make them a professional modeler? They are getting paid for their work. Heck if I submit a photo to FSM to go in their Reader's Gallery, you get paid for it. That hardly makes a person a professional modeler in my book.

Heck, I was accused of being a professional modeler, just because I own a hobby shop. Last time I checked...owning the business didn't all of a sudden over night make me a better modeler. Would be nice if it did....but lets be realistic shall we! LOL
 
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