I ask What the H#!! Judges?

[spud]

wow you have some really cool builds there, I think these judges need to judge what they see not what they like, i mean if you entry a showroom peice judge it on that, if you enter a battle worn peice judge it on that. IMO the battle worn is far more interesting to look at than a showroom peice.

[Elm City Hobbies]

I have been on both sides of the table, both as an entrant and a judge, and I have to say alot of times judges don't get the respect that they deserve. Mind you there are other times when judges have no business being a judge in the first place.

In a perfect world, a kit should be judged on it's merits, and not who built it, or if the judge likes that particular genre, but we all know that doesn't happen often.

I know with our show....we don't compare one kit to another, no "triage" round of judging where you effectively throw out the ones that don't look "worthy" to judge in the 30secs you took to look at them. Everything gets judged on its own merit based on a set of judging criteria, and is assessed a score, depending on where that score falls in the medal table, is the medal you get. Highest score in the category wins it's category, highest score of the show wins best in show.

Our scoring criteria is heavy on build quality, fit and finish, and less on the fact that contestant A built kit X and spent $150 in resin and PE addons, while contestant B built the same kit out of the box. We don't feel that someone should be rewarded for putting a pile of cash into their kit, but how well it is put together, nor do personal feelings become apart of it.

Its not an easy job to do, but when done well, it can be rewarding, not only for the contestant, but for the judge as well, knowing that they did a good and fair job.

[Bomber Boy]

Hey Myke, thanks for the comforting thoughts but i don't feel that bad just wanted to pose the question. I understand there is always politics that enter judging, I post this to bring attention to it, get it out in the open and have a conversation. I as a Long Haired Hippie Freek, I like to think I'm past the politics when I judge. I judge on the merit of the build not wether or not I like the subject matter, I try and judge a showroom built kit the same as a well weathered kit. Even if you build a P-51 that has 12 kills on it and looks show room new, if it is constructed properly ie no gaps in fuse and wing root, and paint is smooth and creamy it will score well even though I know you can't get 12 kills and have a pristine finish, I do not judge his taste just his skill, and I think others should as well, Thats all. This is not about vanity it is about doing the job right.

I love my Family here at SMA and part of all of this is that i wanted to kull out some sites that I post in as I've stated I have this on three sites and this site is one I'll continue posting with, only one will see less of the three. I want to spend my time with people of like minds and evaluate things fairly. I also wanted help in deciding if I still want to enter contest or just display, I mostly will just display from now on, although if I build something SUPER WELL I may enter, but I just wanted to see.

Spud thanks for the comps as well. I love seeing Ya'lls work as well!! Don't worry I ain't goin' nowhere I still have a lot to learn and share, here where the sky is blue and the wind is good.

James

[schweinhund227]

That's why I don't build for competitions.  I know the arguments about improving your skills, by competing.  But ultimately, you're building for the judges, and I'd rather achieve accuracy.

Wow....  right on the money! "The Baron"  which is exactly why I got out of Comp.   
I got tired of seeing the very same models each years... winning again and again....from one town to another from event to event !  They Call it Doing "the Circuit" !  They know where and when to start and where to end their streak....  so the model always qualifies... Which I think is rubbish !   

When it wins...  (retire the darn thing)  bring something NEW !!! 

Enjoy your HARD work buddy.... and just go to shows to buy cool stuff....  if you are not in the CLICK!  then might as well roll a dice !  ribbons are ribbons....  yeah it cool but....they are still Silk Ribbons !!! 

Not All shows are run that way.....  but if the show you are "attending" are held by local clubs..... then....  bring your Dices with you !

I have been to shows where local clubs or club members were not allowed to compete....  that made life a lot easier !  but for some reasons... there were not as many kits on the tables....  LOL !     

Enjoy your models and modeling my friend.....    Comp. is for A.R.J.P

You planes are fine....  mighty fine !!!   

Brush it off and Walk tall !!!  After all it's just a hobby!

[Elm City Hobbies]

That's why I don't build for competitions.  I know the arguments about improving your skills, by competing.  But ultimately, you're building for the judges, and I'd rather achieve accuracy.

Wow....  right on the money! "The Baron"  which is exactly why I got out of Comp.   
I got tired of seeing the very same models each years... winning again and again....from one town to another from event to event !  They Call it Doing "the Circuit" !  They know where and when to start and where to end their streak....  so the model always qualifies... Which I think is rubbish !   

When it wins...  (retire the darn thing)  bring something NEW !!! 

Enjoy your HARD work buddy.... and just go to shows to buy cool stuff....  if you are not in the CLICK!  then might as well roll a dice !  ribbons are ribbons....  yeah it cool but....they are still Silk Ribbons !!! 

Not All shows are run that way.....  but if the show you are "attending" are held by local clubs..... then....  bring your Dices with you !

I have been to shows where local clubs or club members were not allowed to compete....  that made life a lot easier !  but for some reasons... there were not as many kits on the tables....  LOL !     

Enjoy your models and modeling my friend.....    Comp. is for A.R.J.P

You planes are fine....  mighty fine !!!   

Brush it off and Walk tall !!!  After all it's just a hobby!

Nothing wrong with a local show, and nothing wrong with the club members being allowed to enter.

In the 10yrs I have been with our local club here, only once has the Best In Show been won by a local club member. I would have to go back through the category winners, but more often then not, entrants not part of the club were winning the Best in Category prizes.

Also nothing wrong with "Doing the Circuit" If I build a model I want to show it off, if that means taking it to multiple shows, there is nothing wrong with that. We have 3 local shows here in the Maritimes, and my models go to all 3, once they have had a turn at each show....they then get "retired"

Just because a model wins something at one show, doesn't mean it will get jack squat at another show. I have had quite a few models that got different awards at different shows. Anything from a Best In Show to not even an honorable mention for the same kit in different shows.

My LAV C2, I won best armor at our local show (much to my surprise as I personally thought there was much better on the table then my own), and not even place at other shows.

The problem with alot of people is they build for the express purpose of trying to get awards at shows. I build for me. Sure...if a show as a particular theme, I will try and build something that fits said theme, but I am still building the kit for me, and no one else. If I take it to a show and win something for it, great.....if not....oh well, as I don't enter shows to get awards, but to see what other people have built, get ideas, talk with and see people that I only get to see once or twice a year at shows.

If you go into a show with no expectations and you win something, it is much better than going in with high expectations and getting nothing.

[Eastrock]

That's the problem with a crab mentality of some modelers... they tend forget about they are building for themselves not for others... some may says his a better than I what's the point of joining if your already thinking negative... showing your kits in a show / competition is already an achievement and the awards are is only an added bonus, but the best award for a modeler is to gain friends that share the same passion of modelling.

2 cents

[Bladerunner]

Wow - really nice models!

Judging... tough, tough call on that one.  I am of the thought that if you entered the exact same model on a different day of the week, you would get a different result!  I've tried to guess which models will finish at the top on a few occasions but I have been right only half the time. 

Specs in the window and illegal load out?  A bit of a stretch for me.  I get a missed seem or a silvered decal but those other things?  No, at that point its just that someone else's was slightly better in their eye.

Tell you something though, your models are top shelf for sure!

[Elm City Hobbies]

I have to agree about the illegal load out call....that is just pure BS.

If you had something dumb like a Russian A2A missile loaded out on a US F-15....then yeah, as a judge, I am going to call you on it, unless you can show me some photographic proof.

As to whether a Vietnam era F4 carried 2 different types of Sidewinders? Unlikely, but it is possible. I would be more apt to knock off a half point or so because that one missile with the black nose looks to be about 1/8" ahead of the rest of them on the launcher.

The only case for an illegal load out call, is if it was say an Aim 9L/M which wouldn't have been in service when that F4 in question was, if the F4 was intended to be a Vietnam warbird, otherwise it is a BS call.

[Bomber Boy]

Specs in the window and illegal load out?  A bit of a stretch for me.  I get a missed seem or a silvered decal but those other things?  No, at that point its just that someone else's was slightly better in their eye.

Thanks Bladerunner (one of my all time Favorite Movies by the way)
The whole purpose of this particular show was to judge a model on it's own not any of the others around it. It was not a 123 situation with no sweeps in which I get that I would not have placed with some of my builds as I know the faults my thing is I scored a 2 on several and the only crit was the weathering, and none of the stuff I know was wrong. with 3 being average(bronze) with one point given for documentation ( of which I have for every model I build ). In this show theoretically every model in the show could get a medal, I just don't see anything of mine being of below average grade, when the weathering is the determining factor (which I feel is subjective). All seams sanded, no glue gobbes, although thought to be too weathered the paint job is smooth and uniform, wing /elevators level, wheels flattened and bulged, just the  weathering brought up? the scoring was as follows 1-5 construction, 1-5 finish, +1/0/-1 for accuracy(documentation)
+1 for intangible 10-12 gold, 8-9 sil, 6-7 bronze below 6 nothing.

Elm, That F-4 was built to go in the OOB class at regular IPMS contests ie: 123 no sweep, as the build progressed I realized one of the missiles had vanished, this kit actually comes with two set of them one set just different from the other, so since it was in the box I used it, I could have replaced it with an extra one from Has, but that would not be OOB. I should have researched it a little, I called the build (The Last Three) implying they were them, as to the difference in alignment I think the attachment points (the Bands) are lined up, they are just at different points on the different ones, just pointing out not disputing.

 Let me stress I am NOT as pissed as it may seem I have been use to things like this since I was in ART college 25years ago. I just wanted to discuss the subjectivity of weather style and should it way so much as to give some one a 2, 2, 0, 0 on a build that other wise is close to flawless, not perfect but close. I got a lot of 2s on the finish section just because of weathering, and in any pictured here is the finish not smooth and uniform?

James

[Bladerunner]

Oh!  I am not familiar with that show format.  I have only done the 1-2-3 format.
It sounds like a great idea though!

My LHS proposed a show similar to what you describe only to have the locals nay say it.  Pretty much why I don't do the club thing.

[blunce]

I didn't have time to read all the posts, but when you say "silvering" are you (or did they) meaning decal silvering (how the term is normally used) or too much paint chipping, showing silver(-ing)?

[Bomber Boy]

I didn't have time to read all the posts, but when you say "silvering" are you (or did they) meaning decal silvering (how the term is normally used) or too much paint chipping, showing silver(-ing)?

To much  chipping, there are no decals silvered, all are applied on a well glossed surface. they were talking about the walkways that get sanded down by grit and soil on shoes.

James