Tamiya 1:32 Mustang

[13aceofspades13]

That's like using your Ferrari to haul lumber. 

Or bunches of hardbombs on a F15? 

Exactly. There was a reason for the 'F' designation. Air supremacy. You lose it's intended purpose trying to be a Jack of All Trades. The F-15E is more like a "A"-15E. The same happened to the F-14 and F-18. Shortsighted politicians trying to get one plane to do it all.


The P-51 was designed as a Pursuit air supremacy fighter. Not an attack or bomber craft. There were just better planes for those roles. Just sayin' Keep mine in the fighter role. 

true... true... but its also referred to as a Fighter Bomber, yet again P in P-51... stands for Pursuit, and yes there are aircraft better at the ground attack role, like the P-47 Thunderbolt with its faster dive speeds, great payload and more durable air frame and construction. however in my opinion, if it can perform the roll as is why not have it do so if needed or desired? the P-51 was naturally a very Versatile fighter capable of performing these roles.

[13aceofspades13]

no... i would not say it would be like hauling lumber with a farrari, the Mustang was heavier than most fighters, though it could out perform most fighters. the P-51 weighed in at about 11,000 all bombs rockets loaded on full internal load, about 9,500 with full internal load. about 8,700 with a reduced load. it could take hits from 30MM cannon and still fight... as long as it did not get hit somewhere super vital. it was a durable fighter, and fast at low level with a top speed of about 367MPH at sea level, faster than most fighters at low altitudes, and had good agility. it was actually most agile and easiest to fly at lower altitudes, beacuse of its laminar flow wings liked the thicker air. 

however it could take on 109s and 190s... at more than equal terms...

It's exactly like stuffing lumber in your Ferrari. You really think 2 identical P-51s but one weighed down with all that extra ordinance is gonna be as good a fighting plane as the naked one? Weights aren't the issue, the affect of the weight on performance is.
The unloded Ferrari is gonna clean the clock of the one hauling lumber.

i know this, and this is why if Mustangs where escorting bombers, they would not be mounted with bombs and rockets, and if they needed to engage an enemy, they could drop and or launch there ordnances... and engage. bombs where pretty much kept on hard points like drop tanks, bombs could be dropped like drop tanks. and the mustang had a range of 1,300 miles with all the internal tanks full, and the distance from London to Berlin and back is only about 1,200 miles and when a mustang would perform a attack role its target was typically closer then that!

i guess the benefit of attacking a smaller target with fighters is the aircraft does not need escort, it can defend itself. and you don't need a group of bombers to perform something like air support, at the time it was easier to use fighters for air support rather than designing a attack aircraft. a fighters primary role in the ground attack role was typically air support, destroying tank columns (Tank Busters Squadron.) destroying truck convoys, locomotives, using a B-17 or even a B-26 for this would be over kill...

now in my opinion if he wants to put bombs and rockets on his P-51 all the power too him.

[Gundamhead]

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

no... i would not say it would be like hauling lumber with a farrari, the Mustang was heavier than most fighters, though it could out perform most fighters. the P-51 weighed in at about 11,000 all bombs rockets loaded on full internal load, about 9,500 with full internal load. about 8,700 with a reduced load. it could take hits from 30MM cannon and still fight... as long as it did not get hit somewhere super vital. it was a durable fighter, and fast at low level with a top speed of about 367MPH at sea level, faster than most fighters at low altitudes, and had good agility. it was actually most agile and easiest to fly at lower altitudes, beacuse of its laminar flow wings liked the thicker air. 

however it could take on 109s and 190s... at more than equal terms...

It's exactly like stuffing lumber in your Ferrari. You really think 2 identical P-51s but one weighed down with all that extra ordinance is gonna be as good a fighting plane as the naked one? Weights aren't the issue, the affect of the weight on performance is.
The unloded Ferrari is gonna clean the clock of the one hauling lumber.

i know this, and this is why if Mustangs where escorting bombers, they would not be mounted with bombs and rockets, and if they needed to engage an enemy, they could drop and or launch there ordnances... and engage. bombs where pretty much kept on hard points like drop tanks, bombs could be dropped like drop tanks. and the mustang had a range of 1,300 miles with all the internal tanks full, and the distance from London to Berlin and back is only about 1,200 miles and when a mustang would perform a attack role its target was typically closer then that!

i guess the benefit of attacking a smaller target with fighters is the aircraft does not need escort, it can defend itself. and you don't need a group of bombers to perform something like air support, at the time it was easier to use fighters for air support rather than designing a attack aircraft. a fighters primary role in the ground attack role was typically air support, destroying tank columns (Tank Busters Squadron.) destroying truck convoys, locomotives, using a B-17 or even a B-26 for this would be over kill...

now in my opinion if he wants to put bombs and rockets on his P-51 all the power too him.

Ummm....no....if a P-51 was escorting bombers, ANYWHERE, it didn't have anything under the wings besides fuel tanks. You would not see a P-51 escorting bombers with rockets or bombs strapped under the wings, especially going to Berlin because it wouldn't make it back.

Range on a P-51D without tanks is only about 1000miles. Add on a pair of 75gal tanks and you increase that to about 1300miles, replace the 75gal with 150gal tanks and it increases to about 1650miles. Most of the time P-51s going to Berlin with the bombers would carry 150gal tanks, so they had enough fuel to mix it up with the Luftwaffe they would meet, and still have enough fuel to get back to base.

They don't burn as much fuel just flying along with the bombers (as they were much faster than the B-17s), but would eat up the fuel very quickly in a dog fight, so any stangs going to Berlin would carry the largest tanks and keep them on as long as they could before combat, or until they were empty and then would jettison them.

Once the allies invaded Normandy, and got a foot hold on the Europe mainland, they could start basing the escorting fighters in France, and later in Belgium and the Netherlands, they would then meet up with the bombers on their way into Germany, and escort them into the target and back.

The reason they started using the P-51 for ground attack was because by the end of '44, the Luftwaffe was a mere shadow of it's former self, and thus they couldn't throw as many aircraft at the Allies, keeping most of them back to defend against the bomber formations. This freed up alot of other aircraft to go after ground targets.

Not so sure about P-51s surviving many 30mm hits, smaller caliber MGs yes....but not 30mm. Not much could survive a couple of rounds from a 30mm strike, even in non-essential areas, it would put a hole in your wing about 3 times the size of your head. If it hit a fuel tank, you wouldn't be talking about a small leak, but the sudden loss of all the fuel in that tank, which would throw off the balance of the aircraft enough to probably put you into a spin, that is if it didn't explode instantly. Not saying a P-51 couldn't survive a hit from a 30mm, but it would have to be a really, really luck shot for a round that powerful not to hit anything vital to knock you out of the air.

Yes distance from London to Berlin was about 577miles one way, or about 1150miles, however most bases that houses the B17s and escorting fighters were more to the west side of the United Kingdom far enough away so pretty much any German air attack couldn't reach them, or at the very least not make it through the defensive aircraft from bases on the eastern part of the island.

So you can see, a P51 flying from England, even with 75gal tanks...would have enough fuel to get to Berlin and back, but just barely, and not much fuel for dogfighting, which is why they usually flew with 150gal tanks.

[Moon Puppy]

They also flew bomber escort in sections. One squadron would cover them from point a to point b, another squadron would pick them up around point b (hopefully) and go to point c...and so one. The same squadron would not cover them all the way because of the fact that if engaged in combat their range is reduced dramatically because the loss of the extra fuel, if they still had it.

If fighters are flying CAS, Combat Air Support they are not going to mix it up with another fighter. The mission would be planned with another flight to fly CAP, Combat Air Patrol to protect the CAS fighters.

But it did become standard doctrine that fighters returning from protection flights, if they had the fuel and ammo, to harass targets of opportunity in route. But only with the .50s, they would not carry rockets or bombs to cover a bomber.

But still, the New Tamiya kit still doesn't have rockets or bombs! Not sure what scheme I'm doing yet, likely ETO and without ground weapons so it's no big deal but I would like to see the option because the P51 and variants did carry them.

[13aceofspades13]

hold on guys just a second 

the mustang had a maximum range of 2,000 miles, with a pair of 108 gallon drop tanks on its wings, and a internal fuel range of 1,300 miles with about 269 gallons o fuel, in the two main tanks in the wings, and the one aft fuselage tank, sources to prove my findings...

http://www.soseisberg.com/content.php?pagina_id=16

http://warbirdsofww2.tripod.com/p-51.htm

http://www.airventuremuseum.org/collection/aircraft/North%20American%20F-51D%20Mustang.asp

my website, is one of the first things that popped up, ironically beacuse nobody goes too it.
http://13thace.forumotion.com/t6-p-51-mustang-my-favorite-aircraft

http://military.discovery.com/technology/vehicles/fighters/fighters-01.html

http://www.fantasyofflight.com/aircraftpages/p51c.htm

the mustang had a range of about 1,650 miles with the 75 gallon drop tanks, and later some time during the end or after the war they had ferry tanks that held about 165 gallons of fuel which would increase its range to about 2,500 miles, they never had drop tanks that carried 150 gallons of fuel buy my sources or buy what i understand, the more common drop tanks available are what are available in the kit, 75 gallon drop tanks and 108 gallon drop tanks.

i never said the mustang escorted bombers with bombs and rockets, in fact i think i said they never did, beacuse there primary role at that point is to escort the bombers, bombs are dead useless and now you cant have drop tanks, and rockets, well they are useless agents other aircraft due to the lack of accuracy and aircraft performance degreadence, 4 to 6 .50 caliber machine guns with muzzle velocities of 2,700fps and rates of fire of 800 rounds per minute, would rip a little fighter to peaces, and would be far more effective rockets with a droopy and unpredictable trajectory.  

i am also aware that some of the bases where closer, or farther than England, or some enemy target are closer and farther, than Berlin, and i think i stated that, saying at times the target was closer than from Berlin to England. and at times thats how the mustang could easily do the ground attack role with bombs and rockets strapped it had the range... to perform roles such as air support, later in the war... bases in liberated Europe where taken over, and mustangs would also take off from them, but that was much later in the war.

and i was also aware that bombers would travel a distance before the fighters would meet them, beacuse the fighters would travel so much slower than the bombers, that it would actually decrease there range, so it was best, to meet them some time later... at point B as you stated.


my point over all however, P-51s where used frequently in the air support role, and they where equipped with bombs and rockets, and it would not be like hauling lumber with a farrari. 

[Elm City Hobbies]

Mine will be Canadian...just got to find the right markings!!

[Moon Puppy]

Mine will be Canadian...just got to find the right markings!!

Beauty Eh?

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

hold on guys just a second 

the mustang had a maximum range of 2,000 miles, with a pair of 108 gallon drop tanks on its wings, and a internal fuel range of 1,300 miles with about 269 gallons o fuel, in the two main tanks in the wings, and the one aft fuselage tank, sources to prove my findings...

http://www.soseisberg.com/content.php?pagina_id=16

http://warbirdsofww2.tripod.com/p-51.htm

http://www.airventuremuseum.org/collection/aircraft/North%20American%20F-51D%20Mustang.asp

my website, is one of the first things that popped up, ironically beacuse nobody goes too it.
http://13thace.forumotion.com/t6-p-51-mustang-my-favorite-aircraft

http://military.discovery.com/technology/vehicles/fighters/fighters-01.html

http://www.fantasyofflight.com/aircraftpages/p51c.htm

the mustang had a range of about 1,650 miles with the 75 gallon drop tanks, and later some time during the end or after the war they had ferry tanks that held about 165 gallons of fuel which would increase its range to about 2,500 miles, they never had drop tanks that carried 150 gallons of fuel buy my sources or buy what i understand, the more common drop tanks available are what are available in the kit, 75 gallon drop tanks and 108 gallon drop tanks.

i never said the mustang escorted bombers with bombs and rockets, in fact i think i said they never did, beacuse there primary role at that point is to escort the bombers, bombs are dead useless and now you cant have drop tanks, and rockets, well they are useless agents other aircraft due to the lack of accuracy and aircraft performance degreadence, 4 to 6 .50 caliber machine guns with muzzle velocities of 2,700fps and rates of fire of 800 rounds per minute, would rip a little fighter to peaces, and would be far more effective rockets with a droopy and unpredictable trajectory.  

i am also aware that some of the bases where closer, or farther than England, or some enemy target are closer and farther, than Berlin, and i think i stated that, saying at times the target was closer than from Berlin to England. and at times thats how the mustang could easily do the ground attack role with bombs and rockets strapped it had the range... to perform roles such as air support, later in the war... bases in liberated Europe where taken over, and mustangs would also take off from them, but that was much later in the war.

and i was also aware that bombers would travel a distance before the fighters would meet them, beacuse the fighters would travel so much slower than the bombers, that it would actually decrease there range, so it was best, to meet them some time later... at point B as you stated.


my point over all however, P-51s where used frequently in the air support role, and they where equipped with bombs and rockets, and it would not be like hauling lumber with a farrari. 

OK, I was mistaken when I said 150gal tanks...they didn't come until after the war....

But....

Have another look at those links you posted, as it very clearly says:

Operation range with drop tanks: 1300 miles

WITH drop tanks being the operative phrase. Without tanks they could do 1000miles max, 1300miles carrying the 75gal tanks, 1650 miles carrying the 108 gallon tanks. After the war when the 150gal tanks became standard for longer flights it could do 2000+miles, but unless it was an emergency, no pilot worth his salt would let it go that far....most likely would be grounded for going into his reserves without good reason.

And early in the war before the Allies had boots on the ground in mainland Europe, they did escort them all the way from England to the target area and back. They had no choice. Once they had airbases established in Europe, they could meet up with them. Heck, even the bases in Italy (see Tuskegee Airman) would fly up out of Italy to meet the bombers coming out of England and escort them into the target area. 

[fumblethumbs]

Thanks Moon for a peek inside the box.  Although I like plane models and have more than a few in my stash,  this one in 1/32 is too rich for my blood!  I'll be following with interest.

[13aceofspades13]

ok now lets look a some more

no.. with the two main tanks full, the Mustang had a range of about 950 miles, that was with the P-51A before they introduced the aft Fuselage tank, with the Aft fuselage tank the mustang had a range of 1,300 miles as that tank added about 80 more gallons of fuel to its fuel range.

the 75 gallon drop tank the mustang had a range of 1,650 miles....

with the 108 gallon drop tank the mustang had a range of 2,000+ miles and those links clearly state that, including some books i read, and even my flight simulator facts on the Mustang.

the 165 gallon drop tank which came out after WWII, is a poof of concept the mustangs range was extended around 2,550 miles... if there was a 150 gallon drop tank, 15 gallons would not make a 500 mile difference!

you can also get roughly around 1,300 miles if you just use the 75 gallon drop tanks... instead of filling the aft tank

here is more
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/p51.htm

this one states the max range with the ferry tanks 165 gallon about 2,550 miles!
http://yelvingtonaircraft.com/p51.htm

though already posted this one clearly states that with the 108 gallon drop tanks the mustangs range is 2,000 miles...
http://flattopshistorywarpolitics.yuku.com/topic/224/Was-Taking-Iwo-Jima-a-Mistake

here is another
http://www.mustangsmustangs.us/p-51/p51specs.shtml

more
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=77


i just got done doing some math

the internal fuel capacity of the two main internal fuel tanks, is 184 gallons, the internal fuel capacity is 269 gallons, now.. we do the math, that means the aft fuel tank is 85 gallons right? now... thats 269 gallons

950/184=5.2   5.2X269=1,398  my math seems to be making sense here... thats around 1,300 1,400 miles! for only internal fuel capacity! so lets doo more math

the two 108 gallon drop tanks, 108+108= 216.... 216+269=485 gallons of fuel and with the math done... 269/1,300= 4.8MPG thats miles per gallon, now... multiply that buy the total fuel capacity of 485 gallons and you get 2,344 miles, account the added drag and weight... and you get.... about 2000 miles. so not only do my facts and sources add up, but the numbers do too. do you agree?

now i do agree once again, that no pilot would really want to fly that close within its range, but that is its range, buy my research, buy my math... which i have checked more than once.

[spud]

oh you B************* thats sweet.

* spud is jelous

[13aceofspades13]

oh you B************* thats sweet.

* spud is jelous

i know right, i am dying for this kit... but saving my money for other things right now... DX

hay guys? does this kit come with a pilot? if so can you get a photo for me?

[Moon Puppy]

oh you B************* thats sweet.

* spud is jelous

i know right, i am dying for this kit... but saving my money for other things right now... DX

hay guys? does this kit come with a pilot? if so can you get a photo for me?

It does, two, one standing, one strapped in.

Let's not worry about the range of the aircraft, all that was worked out some 70 years ago. Now we're just building little plastic models of them.   

Thank you Spud, just wait till I do my damage then you'll be sorry.. 

[13aceofspades13]

so you get to choose huh... what if i painted both? do the pilots faces look different or the same?